On the Inside or Outside?

[Phantom]

Is this fire inside or outside

[Phantom]

After opening up this is your 360, what are your concerns? Did you correctly deduce the fire was coming from the interior?

[Truck123]

Phantom,

The 1st pic is hard to judge. Could have went either way (basement fire or something outside the structure). I felt it was a basement fire.

Basement fires are a bitch. Visibility is obviously extremely poor and with the fire load, I would be extremely concerned for a floor collapse. Pop the basement windows from the exterior (if any have not done so yet), check for an entrance to the basement from the exterior, and if there are none, then get the boys inside and in the basement. If there is any sign of the floor collapsing, I would go 100% defensive from the windows until it is knocked down a good amount, and work from there on getting guys inside.

[stirnitupp]

This was a tough call from the first picture to tell if it was exterior or interior. I sure wouldn't have checked up one way or another until I was absolutely sure though. My concerns would be limited egress from the basement since there does not appear to be an accessible exterior egress. Questions I would ask myself are, what are the basement stairs made of? Are they going to hold up if the hose team has to bail? How is the floor on the first floor? What about extension? Appears to be at night, are the occupants accounted for. Is a primary search being conducted?

[gitter-done]

Looks like a basement off from the looks of picture #3 with extension to division 1. Conditions are deteriorating drastically from the looks of the nasty ass brown/black smoke pushing out. Outside horizontal vent is complete now get a line on it through an exterior basement window to black it so a crew can get on it from the inside.

[Truckinainteasy]

At first glance that could be an outside fire, but when you look closely it is behind the shrubs and at ground level. Good Pic to make you think. OK, so the size up. Anyone home? I'd want a quick search of the sleeping areas. This is an obviously advanced fire, If I could darken from the exterior or make the attack through an exterior door I'd go that route. I'm not sure on the interior attack at the point I can see in the pics. That whole basement is off. Too many bad things happen with burning basements and usually only to firefighters. I'm gonna open that first floor up and see what happens while I get a line on it from the window I think.

[porkchop33]

I agree with the rest of you that yes it is a basement fire. But my question is this, do you have the first in engine co. advance a line in the rear and if their is an outside entrance you make an attack and run the possibility of pushing the fire up and into the rest of the home. Or do you go in the first floor and if the stairs are in good condition, take the ten second beating getting down the stairs and knock the fire. If the stairs are not in a safe condition or absent, I agree get it through the out side windows and put a folding ladder into the basement stair well and finish up the job.

[allpro]

Hold on. You don't flow a line through a basement window without communicating to a crew to hold it at the steps first. If not, you run the risk of pushing all of that sh*t up the stairs to the rest of the house and ending any chance of rescue. Needless to say what might happen to any firefighters inside. Don't get overwhelmed by the visible fire.

[Truckinainteasy]

Good points, about the steps. If I had an outside entrance I'd run the line in there first. If I had an indication of life hazard might look at VES to the bedrooms. With the amount of fire showing and at different places you have to consider spread through multiple parts of the house. The 10 second beating isn't the problem, been there for a few of those, its fighting your way back out when you find you have a couple of rooms off above you too. One of the problems of checking for floor collapse is that your first crews making the way across the first floor could be the first ones to find the floor is gone and end up in the basement. Plenty of NIOSH reports for those jobs. Again, Id consider venting, letting it blow and seeing where I had extension before committing too many people over that fire.

[Truckinainteasy]

BTW, Phantom.. any idea on the outcome? Any links to the story?

[porkchop33]

Sorry allpro I thought those points where inplied. I think we can all agree that basement fires just plain suck. Their are many ways to put them out, direct attack, navy/ celler nozzle, foam..... etc. Every situation is diffrent and presents diffrent hazards.

[allpro]

porkchop33, no problem

Phantom, maybe you should have shown the first picture then waited for responses before showing the others.

[Phantom]

The pics are from a firehouse photo story - I don't have the link.

I should have posted the 2nd set of pics later.

[fib1]

Basics...... The first line goes and covers the stairs........the first in special searches, quickly. Once the life hazard is cleared, you re-evaluate and make sure EGH.

FTM-PTB

[allpro]

"Basics...... The first line goes and covers the stairs........the first in special searches, quickly. Once the life hazard is cleared, you re-evaluate and make sure EGH."

When are you going to put the fire out?

[ONaMISSION VO2A]

Get on scene one of my biggest concerns with the size up is what I have in the rear. As some of you have mentioned, yes exterior means of egress. So, you can get the first line to the first floor to control the interior basement door and second line to the exterior egress to attack. But, my biggest concern is the number of divisions in the rear. Now it does not appear that this dwelling is built "into a hill" but that is crucial on any fire but especially a basement fire, do I have a two story dwelling on side Alpha and a three story on side Charlie. Also the first Rescue Squad or Ladder Truck on the scene needs to be extremely aggressive with searching(remember R.E.C.E.O.). Another concern is with the structure in dealing with construction, possible balloon frame, dwelling looks like it has some age to it? If you look at the second post with the three pictures, be aware corner of sides Alpha and Bravo there are electric lines running to the dwelling. As far as knocking this fire with no exterior means of agress this is what I was thinking. First, obviously deuce and a half smooth bore. Second, BLITZ ATTACK. BUTTTT, before the blitz attack begins, if you can ensure the intergrity of the first floor, have a company enter the dwelling also equipped with a deuce and half line (with a stacked tip nozzle because from what I see in the pictures the basement is at least 50 percent involved, probably more) and locate the interior stairs. Second task for them is to obviously control the interior basement door, and IF possible ask them to give you an idea of what quadrant the interior stairs are located in. Once getting an answer base your blitz attack on trying to protect the stairs while knocking the fire down from the outside if possible. All efforts as we know to protect stairs is a top priority and always important. I know this is alot I have typed but in reality if your running with a crew your very tight with, I would expect these tasks could be accomplished in 7 minutes at the max. And I'm starting the clock once you have laid a supply line.

But hey just my two cents.
WFO

[porkchop33]

A question if you don't mind ONaMISSION VO2A. Why use a blitz line, better yet, why use two blitz lines, one as an attack and one as a control at the top of the stairs. In my limited experence as a fire fighter, and by that I mean a volie for 6 years and a paid FF in Baltimore City for two, if you have a basement fire and the floor/celing above it is intack, an 1 3/4 will do the job any time. The fact that it's in a confined space will let the steam do it's job. It seams that a two blitz lines is a bit much. I understand putting a breznan (sp) distributer on a 2 1/2 if the stair's are too hot or are gone. I'm not saying your wrong, just asking a question.

[ONaMISSION VO2A]

Porkchop33:

In response to your question which was very reasonable, perhaps I was a bit confusing and didn't fully explain my point. First, the blitz attack tactic was in reference as to if there was not an exterior means of egress. Knock it down from the outside then go in. Also as I stated if possible and safe enough on the first floor, have a crew locate and close the interior door to the basement and as accurately as possible give the outside team the location of the basement stairs(i.e. Quadrant 4). My reasoning behind that was like I said, protect the stairs even for a blitz attack or defensive, both obviously from the outside. That way the blitz crew outside can then go to Side D and direct their stream towards the other quadrants, therefore somewhat pushing the fire away from the stairs if that makes sense. From the pictures they show, the basement is going pretty well. And from the location, color, and amount of smoke issuing from the first floor windows, I'd say you already have a good amount of extension to the first floor. Which brings me to your second question, in reference to what diameter hose to stretch for the crew going to protect the interior basement door. Like I said, I believe the basement is going pretty good, the smoke issuing from the first floor windows is nasty in color, and plentiful. Therefore I want to be safe and pull a deuce and a half so if I have a good amount of fire on the first floor I am well protected. But, also you opened up my eyes to something. The crew protecting the interior basement stairs is doing just that. They need to do that job with 100% of effort. Therefore if there is a good amount of fire on the first floor, you need to get a third line in service on the first floor to start knocking it down and protect the team that are protecting the interior basement door.
Also, you said in your post, "... if you have a basement fire and the floor/celing above it is intack, an 1 3/4 will do the job any time." True but what if the floor was intack but the fire had extended majorly through the walls due to many void spaces into the attic and was starting to come down through the ceiling?
These are just my thoughts, I've only been in the fire service for three years as a volunteer, but in what I have learned so far this is what I thought. Lets keep the shop talk up, its "good stuff".
be safe WFO

[allpro]

It's a one story house with a abasement. I doubt it's ballon frame construction. Looks like poured concrete walls for a foundation and a simple ordinary wood frame house. This house does not seem to have an exterior entrance; so man-up and make the steps. Oh, and be quick about it.

[fib1]

All Pro Hey Brother I was being brief and assuming the readers would follow...........
March 7 – With Truck 28 and Chief 28A already on a gas leak in Bowie, the House fire assignment was struck for 4305 74th Ave. for a house on fire and a report of people trapped. Engine 281 rolled out the door first due. Chief 30 went on the scene reporting a working fire and 281 pulled on the scene and deployed the attack line. Doing a quick assessment, “Rick” found a basement fire and went in the front door to control the fire already extending to the kitchen and was able to hold the fire at the top of the stairs so other crews could fully extinguish the fire. Some minor firefighter injuries were reported and everyone made it out of the house ok. Great job by “Rick” and “Scuba” working together and setting the example of controlling a basement fire the way it should be done.

This is from West Lanham Hills web site.......Nice Job E281
Be Safe

[K.Crutchley]

What about bresnan distributors? Cutting small hole in first floor advancing distributor into hole to knock the fire. I know its old school, fire chief hand book style not glamorous, but it works.


Definitely outside of the box thinking, using a cellar nozzle for what it was intended for. Another thought may be to use a wide pattern fog in the window. the smaller water droplets will convert to steam much faster and really expand. On a hot basement fire it most likely will expand faster than the fire will blow. Also the steam will absorb a tremendous amount of heat. Of course this is only an option if there is absolutely no life hazard inside the structure. Acouple of shots from the outside then go in and finish it off. This technique works well on ships and espacially wtih the way some homes are so airtight, chances are it just might work.

[ericp278]

My first thought when i saw the pic was a basement fire all the way. In my area we have alot of SFD's with half circle window wells. Lot of the windows at that level are glass block. Makes for a hot ass attack down the steps. All i gotta say is suppresion through aggression on this one. Good coordination with the OVM is imporatnt here.

[sunflower]

It's a one story house with a abasement. I doubt it's ballon frame construction. Looks like poured concrete walls for a foundation and a simple ordinary wood frame house. This house does not seem to have an exterior entrance; so man-up and make the steps. Oh, and be quick about it. Good luck on being quick about finding the stairwell. With all that smoke and judging by the color, you BETTER be quick about it. Judging from a close call I had with a besement fire with no exterior entrance, if the first floor isn't clear enough to get right to the stairs, just pull a confinement line to the front and back door, knock it the best you can through the basement windows, at least until you can SAFELY make it down the steps from the interior. I " manned up" on the call I was referring to. It took a while to find the stairs and it almost cost me my life. I've never been the same since. Oh I still go in and get it when the situation calls for it, been to the burn unit since then as well. But , that lump is always in my throat on basements. No matter what kind of house, and the fire conditions are, that lump never gos away. It's kinda funny. I spent the first 10 years in the dept. with that lump in my pants when I saw fire. Now, if it's a basement, it's in my throat. :D

[MIDDLEFINGER]

Definitely inside from the pic. You can't see the top of the window on side B, Smoke emitting from the corner by the down spout and right behind the tree on the right you can see smoke from the other window, not only that but the fire is to close to the house so the fire is escaping via, the window. If it were out side, With a flame that high, the bushes on both side's would be burning as well. But we have the aftermath pic's up so what does it matter now................ :rolleyes: