Ward Churchill Says 343 were "Collateral Damage"

[Mad Co Citizen]

I emailed Ward Churchill and told him that he should be ashamed of himself for saying that those who died, which included 343 firefighters, on 9-11 deserved what they got. He said this in an essay that can be found on the internet:

http://coloradoaim.org/Wardchurchillghostsof911.htm

He emailed me back and said they he considers the 343 firefighters killed at the WTC "collateral damage". To me, this means he considers the WTC attack an acceptable attack against our country; and his essay pretty much says this also.

His email is ward.churchill@colorado.edu

FTM-PTB

[Emtmom]

I did NOT read the entire ramblings of this man, for one reason. In the first few paragraphs he blames Iraq for 9/11.
In case you've forgotten it was Afghanistan, and Bin Laden who planned and acted on 9/11.
So as far as I'm concerned his ramblings are just that, ramblings. By sending him emails, you are just giving him the attention he was looking for when he wrote his ramblings!
Does some of what I read ring true, sure, that's the hook to get you to believe it all!
To hell with the guy, and his opinion!

[Incident]

This guy resigned last Monday as chairman of ethnic studies at the UNversity of Colorado.. He also caused the cancellation of a panel discussion at Hamilton College due to death threats - he compared Sept. 11 victims to Nazis (sounds like his article). I can understand that he has the background to be exposed to other cultures, and maybe even embrace some of the practices, but he should also know better than to be so offensive to a large population of the U.S. America is not ready for stuff like this yet. It will take another 3 - 5 years before everyday America can approach this as "history" and compare it to other events....

[Mad Co Citizen]

Emtmom,

Whatever. I refuse to sit by and not say anything. I guess we are different in that aspect.

You wrote: "Does some of what I read ring true, sure, that's the hook to get you to believe it all!" What? Some of his crap rang true with you? Nothing rang true with me. Where does he blame Iraq for 9-11? You must have read something else.

[Emtmom]

Emtmom,

Whatever. I refuse to sit by and not say anything. I guess we are different in that aspect.

You wrote: "Does some of what I read ring true, sure, that's the hook to get you to believe it all!" What? Some of his crap rang true with you? Nothing rang true with me. Where does he blame Iraq for 9-11? You must have read something else.

[QUOTE=from the article]At the front of the queue were the wraiths of a half-million Iraqi children, all of them under twelve, all starved to death or forced to die for lack of basic sanitation and/or medical treatment during the past ten years. These youngsters suffered and died because the U.S. first systematically bombed their country's water purification, sewage treatment and pharmaceutical plants out of existence, then imposed a decade-long--and presently ongoing--embargo to ensure that Iraq would be unable to repair or replace most of what had been destroyed.4 The point of this carefully calculated mass murder, as was explained at the outset by then-President George Herbert Walker Bush, father of the current Oval Office occupant, has been to impress upon the Iraqi government--and the rest of the world as well--that "what we say, goes."5

In other words, though no less bluntly: "Do as you're told or we'll kill your babies."[/QOUTE] Did I misread, or is he not talking about Iraq? This is his explanatiopn as to why 9/11 happened!

[burning85]

didnt read the whole thing got through like 2 sentences before i said ..."hmmm right like im going to finish this garbage"...but anyways nancy just from your statement-not contradicitng you but :

"In other words, though no less bluntly: "Do as you're told or we'll kill your babies."[/QUOTE] Did I misread, or is he not talking about Iraq? This is his explanatiopn as to why 9/11 happened!"

i can't see how that can be his explanation seeing how, 9-11 happened before any bombings on iraq?? unless he is referring to the actions in desert storm, although the actions of 9-11 were masterminded and carried out by bin laden who originated from saudi arabia...so if that's the case then this guy really should of researched his facts before taking the time to write this nonsense-and if i'm wrong then i should of taken the time to read more then 2 lines as painful as it may have been to my brain!!

[Emtmom]

i can't see how that can be his explanation seeing how, 9-11 happened before any bombings on iraq?? unless he is referring to the actions in desert storm, although the actions of 9-11 were masterminded and carried out by bin laden who originated from saudi arabia...so if that's the case then this guy really should of researched his facts before taking the time to write this nonsense-and if i'm wrong then i should of taken the time to read more then 2 lines as painful as it may have been to my brain!!
I would think he meant desert storm since Bush's father was president then. And he references both the elder Bush and M. Albright. The quote was his explanation as to what we had done to "deserve" 9/11. Or part of it I should say, as I also gave up on his ramblings. lol

[burning85]

ahhh okay!! that's really ashame and just damn disappointing as a human and fellow american that he could think that anyone "deserved" 9-11. there should be some sort of compassion in human nature no matter how miniscule, hell i feel sorrow and compassion for the innocent that have suffered over in iraq, i just dont know about some damn people.

[ENGINEDUDELT]

Maybe I an insensitive, well, yeah I am. But I do not care about Iraqi Children, Afghani children, Tsunami victims or anybody else. If you ain't liven in the good ole' USofA then I don't care. We are wasting our money on these damn people when we have our own people who need help. BLOCK the borders and send all the illegals home. Let us take care of ourselves.

[StirringStick]

But I do not care about Iraqi Children, Afghani children, Tsunami victims or anybody else. If you ain't liven in the good ole' USofA then I don't care.

And you know what, they don't really care about us either. Not saying that you agree or disagree with the article that was originally posted. But if someone hates America (regardless if they live here or not) and says that 343 Fireman dying was "Collateral Damage," than isn't it kind of hypocritical for you to bash them after you basically view Iraqi children, Afghani Children and Tsunami victims in the same light? Do I care about them myself? Nope, not one bit. I do have some compassion for the Children as they are somewhat innocent. But I won't call for silencing this guy's opinion, it's his right. I don't agree, but he has the right to it. My opinion? I think everyone has been riding the 9-11 Gravy Train for too long. I stopped reading Firehouse Magazine for that very reason. It was tragic, it was horrific and it was a disaster. But we must move on from it ir we will never move ahead.

[ENGINEDUDELT]

Good Point. Point Taken.

[mohican]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42666

TROUBLE SPEAK
Colorado governor
wants 9-11 prof out
Says state not compelled to accept pro-terrorist views at taxpayer cost

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: February 2, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern



© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com



Prof. Ward Churchill under fire for 9-11 comments

The governor of Colorado yesterday called for the resignation of the University of Colorado professor under fire for comparing the victims of the 9-11 World Trade Center terror attacks to Nazis while praising the suicide hijackers for their "gallant sacrifices."

Gov. Bill Owens sent the letter to the president of the University of Colorado College Republicans, Isaiah Lechowit, who was scheduled to read it at a rally in opposition to professor Ward Churchill.

"All decent people, whether Republican or Democrat, liberal or conservative, should denounce the views of Ward Churchill," wrote Owens. "Not only are his writings outrageous and insupportable, they are at odds with the facts of history."

As WorldNetDaily reported, the controversy stems from an essay Churchill wrote titled "Some People Push Back: On the Justice of Roosting Chickens," written shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks. In it, he describes the thousands of American victims who died in the World Trade Center inferno as "little Eichmanns" (a reference to notorious Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann) who were perpetuating America's "mighty engine of profit." They were destroyed, he added, thanks to the "gallant sacrifices" of "combat teams" that successfully targeted the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon.

On Monday, Churchill stepped down as chairman of the Ethnic Studies Department but remains a professor of Ethnic Studies and Coordinator of American Indian Studies at the Colorado school.

Tomorrow night, the university's board of regents will have a special meeting to discuss the tenured professor's fate.

Wrote Owens: "Not only are [Churchill's] writings outrageous and insupportable, they are at odds with the facts of history. The thousands of innocent people – and innocent they were – who were murdered on September 11 were murdered by evil cowards Indeed, if anyone could possibly be compared to the evildoers of Nazi Germany, it is the terrorists of the 21st century who have an equally repugnant disregard for innocent human life.

"No one wants to infringe on Mr. Churchill's right to express himself. But we are not compelled to accept his pro-terrorist views at state taxpayer subsidy nor under the banner of the University of Colorado."

Owens, a Republican, said the professor's views are more than just anti-American, but are "at odds with simple decency, and antagonistic to the beliefs and conduct of civilized people around the world. His views are far outside the mainstream of civil discourse and useful academic work."

Concluded Owens: "His resignation as chairman of the Ethnic Studies Department was a good first step. We hope that he will follow this step by resigning his position on the faculty of the University of Colorado."

Churchill was scheduled to speak at Hamilton College, in Clinton, N.Y., near Syracuse tomorrow, but yesterday officials at the school canceled the appearance, citing security concerns and death threats they had received.

[burning85]

And you know what, they don't really care about us either. Not saying that you agree or disagree with the article that was originally posted. But if someone hates America (regardless if they live here or not) and says that 343 Fireman dying was "Collateral Damage," than isn't it kind of hypocritical for you to bash them after you basically view Iraqi children, Afghani Children and Tsunami victims in the same light? Do I care about them myself? Nope, not one bit. I do have some compassion for the Children as they are somewhat innocent. But I won't call for silencing this guy's opinion, it's his right. I don't agree, but he has the right to it. My opinion? I think everyone has been riding the 9-11 Gravy Train for too long. I stopped reading Firehouse Magazine for that very reason. It was tragic, it was horrific and it was a disaster. But we must move on from it ir we will never move ahead.

sure that is the man's opinion and he has every right to voice it, but i feel he should have had a little decency and repect for what happened. i really feel that was a very inappropriate thing to write and publish. and this guy is a teacher?? i hope he didnt teach his students his opinions over facts. but i do agree with you on the fact that the "9-11 gravy train" should stop especially now that is has been commercialized by the people, press, and media!! it was a truely awful event that will not be forgotten but i dont think the families of the victims and what not should have to re-live it every year like it is a commercialized holiday!!!!

[StirringStick]

I like the way you think! As far as his opinions and about him being a teacher I ask....have you been to a College Campus lately to see the Anti-American Hate being spewed by these Professors? It's horrendous....I know my children will not go to a Publicly funded college....

[TaskForce]

I like the way you think! As far as his opinions and about him being a teacher I ask....have you been to a College Campus lately to see the Anti-American Hate being spewed by these Professors? It's horrendous....I know my children will not go to a Publicly funded college....

Stick-
Please list specifically, aside from this one moron at Colorado, which campus is spewing 'Anti-American Hate'. Whats wrong with publicly funded colleges? You'd rather they went to a privatly funded institution which are mostly aligned along sacred lines?

[burning85]

I like the way you think! As far as his opinions and about him being a teacher I ask....have you been to a College Campus lately to see the Anti-American Hate being spewed by these Professors? It's horrendous....I know my children will not go to a Publicly funded college....

why thank you...well i go to a community college and there's all kinds of people there with their own things happening, however my sister goes to a publicly funded college of a higher magnitude, and she was few and far between for her republican standpoint in her classes and on campus generally!! so i know exactly what you are talking about!! that's why people should believe what works and not the hype, form their own opinions and standpoints on factual things not just here-say that they get from professors, tv , magazines and peers!!!

[mohican]

.......In case you've forgotten it was Afghanistan, and Bin Laden who planned and acted on 9/11.
So as far as I'm concerned his .......

http://archives.warroom.com/abcnews-1999.mp3
Hmm
in 1999 there was an established Al Quada presence in Iraq

Saddam had an established track record of finacial assistance to the families of suicide bombers

There was not only a link, but a whole damn bridge

[hog]

pretty simple in my mind FUCK HIM

[Emtmom]

http://archives.warroom.com/abcnews-1999.mp3
Hmm
in 1999 there was an established Al Quada presence in Iraq

Saddam had an established track record of finacial assistance to the families of suicide bombers

There was not only a link, but a whole damn bridge
And the 9/11 commision found NO CONNECTION between Iraq and 9/11.

[Loo for life]

Remember the 9-11 Commision was not a god like panel they were a group of politicians on both sides of the fence some covering their own mistakes as it is found. They found no direct link between the hijackers and IRAQ, there were however at the years prior too that time terrorist training camps in IRAQ!

Once such camp in Northern IRAQ had an airline fuselage for training and was known to train Al Queda trash, so yes technically you and the 9-11 group are correct there was no direct involvement. But please a blind man could see the connection as the big picture goes...

[mohican]

And the 9/11 commision found NO CONNECTION between Iraq and 9/11.

EMTmom - let me preface this by saying that this is not directed at you, but I have a real problem the media portrayal on these issues.

With people like Garelic (sp) on the panel, who should have abscused themselves, a lot of it wasn't real. That panel was filled with partisan hacks from both sides.

Take WMDs for example - the claim that no WMDs had been found

But then Kerry was trying to make political hay about 300 tons of missing explosives (which could have been a clerical error). Do you know how much damage 300 tons of the powdered explosives would have done? A that was much less than 1% of the amount that our troops found, and exploded out in the desert?

What is exactly a weapon of mass destruction, and how many people does it have to kill? Would something that could level a city the size of New York qualify? Or because those are just conventional high explosives, we won't count those?

[Emtmom]

So do we now go out and bomb EVERY country that has had terrorist training camps? Every country that is developing weapons? What about North Korea?
Once again on the national news the other day was the president again reminding us that NO weapons of mass destruction were found, and that it was a mistake, BUT, we had to save the people of Iraq. Are they really safer now? OH, and in case we all missed the news today, a convoy of Iraqi police were ambushed today and 30 of them are missing. Does that sound like it's safer there?
It's the president himself saying that NO WMD were found. Or is that just another one of his misstruths????? OH hell let's call them what they are LIES!

[hog]

i will put it to you in a very simple way.....if you don`t believe that he had WMD`s you are nuts.....the war had to happen ....i haven`t heard of anymore attacks on the US.......and if you don`t believe that Hussain was training terrorist then not only are you nuts ....you done flipped

[mohican]

I'm not the biggest bush supporter out there

I like some of what he's done, but voted for him as a lesser evil than John sKerry

What gets lost in all this is that we never officially ended the gulf war, it was a cease fire, contingent on Saddam complying with myriad resolutions. Saddam, after watching Clinton tuck tail and run after Somalia, decided it was ok to flaunt us, knowing that the UN would be as usefull as an accordian in a bass boat. According to the ceasefire, Bush really didn't need to go to congress to get authorization for this.

Guesswhat, we do have troops stuck in a quagmire. But they've been there about 10 years. It's called Kosovo.

I'm also enough of a realist to call Iraq a war for oil. So what? Our economy runs on oil.

chew on this:
Al quaida made a first strike at the WTC in 1993. Our response was pathetic.

Al quaida has had presense in Iraq, widely acknowledged prior to resurrecting the Iraq conflict.

In 2001, Al Quaida took another pass at the WTC, with devastating results.

Later, still 2001 we went into Afghanistan, with the press and the Democrats saying we would have our butts handed to us. We might not have OBN, but we've captured his master strategist, and almost all of his upper echelon. The tapes release could possibly be doctored. OBN could be under tons of bunker bustin rubble. Afganistan had elections, with women allowed to vote.

Then we turned to another terroist aiding nation. Some senators voted for it, before they voted against it. We took the country in less time than it took General Reno's forces to take the Branch Davidian Complex. We had minimal troop loss at that time. IMO, our biggest problem is that we then got too soft, and showed too much mercy on thugs, such as Al Zarchowi (SP :D )

Look at these Muslim scum bag thugs, and how they crowed shortly after 9/11. Do you have any doubt, that had we tried to appease, that there wouldn't have been more attacks of that scale, stateside? Where would you have these scum bag thugs, in the sights of our Marines in Fallujah, or in some large metropolitan area in the US?

Isolationism as a national policy worked, until the invention of the airplane, and submarine........

Do I think that there could have been another solution, and not invaded Afghanistan or Iraq? You bet.

[No Fear]

Your right Mom, lets quit messing around, lets nuke them all. Plus we will send Ted Kennedy there to see if we hit our target, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, and lets not forget France, they got to go to.

[Emtmom]

Your right Mom, lets quit messing around, lets nuke them all. Plus we will send Ted Kennedy there to see if we hit our target, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, and lets not forget France, they got to go to.Now come on, I was just pointing out that if we are going to be the world police let's just go after all of them. I'm just so tired of all this shit! We are stuck in Iraq for the long haul, it will be years before anyone knows if any of this was even worth all the lives lost. Once we leave, if we are EVER able to, will Iraq stay a country that is "free", are they NOW? Afterall someone said Iraq had training camps for terrorists, and that was one reason. SO, then we should go into every country that has had training camps and bomb them. OH, and some of those terrorists did training here too! I believe they ALL learned to fly in THIS country! Pilots in this country taught them to fly planes. Do we put those instructors in jail?
Or is it only the countries we feel like going in to? Is it only the ones that have oil that we want, and if this was about oil, why the hell are prices still so damn high? WHY, are they not pumping out the damn oil to help pay for the war and the rebuilding? Is all this money we are pouring into this war, are all these lives worth it? OR should Bush have listened to his advisors and held off on the war in Iraq? Dealt with Afghanistan and kept his eye on Hussien?
I'm sorry, but the man lied to us, and now after the fact, after all these KIDS (most of the soldiers who have died are kids) are dead he is coming clean and admitting that he made a mistake. BULLSHIT!
Whether or not some of you want to admit it, this is another Viet Nam! AND YES, I am old enough to remember Viet Nam. I am old enough to remember praying EVERY day for my BROTHER to come home safe! To know that they too were fighting a sometimes invisible enemy. That you NEVER turn your back and you NEVER trust anyone, not even children!
I know from my best friends son, that is what it is like in Iraq too.
Everyday I pray for the soldiers safe return home!
That doesn't mean I have to agree with Bush, or his damn war!

[Retired Guy]

It doesn't matter who the president is, or which party is in power. We bow to the oil producing nations. Do you see us with a huge presense in Africa trying to stop all of the bloodshed there? Maybe it is time to reduce our dependence on oil and maybe you won't see these long lasting conflicts in the Middle East. Kinda hard to fight an enemy when they use civilians to blow themselves up. Times have changed since WW2 and Korea. At least there you had a defined front line where the shooting took place at.

[Mad Co Citizen]

Explain to me what Bush lied about? WMD? Listen to John Kerry, Bill Clinton and pretty much EVERYONE ELSE who said that Iraq had them AND that there was a threat. The difference between Bush and the others is that he actually DID something about it. If you go to your sons' room, smell marijuana but cannot find any, does that mean he never had any???? Huh? Give me a break, Hussein had them, used them (do you deny that?) and hid them (or threw them out the window - to Syria).

Did your best friends son tell you stories about the mass graves, the torture chambers, the Iraqis thanking troops and wanting to take charge of their country...the good, or were you just listening to the bad because that is all you are interested in?

I respect your view, but by saying Iraq is "another Vietnam", a "damn war" or that we are "stuck in Iraq for the long haul, it will be years before anyone knows if any of this was even worth all the lives lost" or questions like "Is all this money we are pouring into this war, are all these lives worth it?"...does ANY of that help anything?

Retired Guy, let's here your solution to the oil dependence...and do not just talk about alternative fuels...because I am fine with that...address HOW we get to that point. Plus, do you support drilling for oil in Alaska?

[Retired Guy]

I have no problem with drilling in Alaska (I'm not a tree hugger). There is common sense in it. The oil companies need to respect the environment. There have been advances in the equipment that they use that will have less of an impact on the environment. The car makers still need to be guided by government regulation to produce more fuel effecient vehicles. I think a huge SUV looks good, but would not want to have to gas one up. Just look at diesel costs. My county provides free Fire & EMS services. Diesel prices are killing us....

I also support our war effort (I'm retired Navy). I have helped with the firing of Tomahawk missiles before. I have seen the pictures of what that SOB did in Iraq with his gas weapons (on his own people). I have been "over there" before. Most of the people are not terrorists who want the freedom to work and raise their families like everyone else.

[kep.ctc]

Ward Churchill is the equivalent of a Michael Moore and the nut in Iraq (ZARQUAI) not sure on spelling. sending kids out with bombs strapped to their bodies and blowing up the USA Armed Forces, Iraqi goverment officials police and Military.

I will say this democracy will prevail just like it did here over 200 years ago. It may take time and effort but other countries in the middle east may also want freedom from dictators just like the Iraqi's.

Churchill move to France with all the other lilly bast&*ds.

[Emtmom]

Explain to me what Bush lied about? WMD? Listen to John Kerry, Bill Clinton and pretty much EVERYONE ELSE who said that Iraq had them AND that there was a threat. The difference between Bush and the others is that he actually DID something about it. If you go to your sons' room, smell marijuana but cannot find any, does that mean he never had any???? Huh? Give me a break, Hussein had them, used them (do you deny that?) and hid them (or threw them out the window - to Syria).
:Let's see when he admitted after we attacked, that he knew they did NOT have the weapons before we attacked. He admitted to lying to the US, or is there another name for that?

Did your best friends son tell you stories about the mass graves, the torture chambers, the Iraqis thanking troops and wanting to take charge of their country...the good, or were you just listening to the bad because that is all you are interested in? Yes he did tell us about the kids going to school, and the disappontment that the news NEVER points out what good is being done. AND YES, I was listening, unfortunately the bad far outweighs the good.

I respect your view, but by saying Iraq is "another Vietnam", a "damn war" or that we are "stuck in Iraq for the long haul, it will be years before anyone knows if any of this was even worth all the lives lost" or questions like "Is all this money we are pouring into this war, are all these lives worth it?"...does ANY of that help anything?Not at all, it's just my opinion!


Retired Guy, let's here your solution to the oil dependence...and do not just talk about alternative fuels...because I am fine with that...address HOW we get to that point. Plus, do you support drilling for oil in Alaska?There are ways to switch our major fuel sources, part of the problem is that people in a position to help make it happen are making too much money from oil companies to do anything about it! INCLUDING, the president who makes plenty of oil money! Do you know where a good portion of the 40 million for the inauguration parties came from? YOU GUESSED IT.....OIL COMPANY donations! So why would the govt. be in any hurry to switch our fuel sources, when so many people in govt. benefit from the oil companies?

[Mad Co Citizen]

"He admitted to lying to the US"

Completely false. He relied on intelligence that has NEVER been proven wrong. Think of the scenario I discussed earlier...just because you don't find drugs in your kids room does not mean it was'nt there...do you disagree? Give me a source and a quote where president Bush admitted to lying.

"the bad far outweighs the good"

Yet another quote from you that does NOT help AND is NOT supported by the facts.

"There are ways to switch our major fuel sources"

Fine, name them and detail HOW we do it. It is not something that is easy and it is NOT just because of the oil companies. Do you own a car? Where is the closest "alternative fuel" station to you? Who would you expect to supply the infrastructure? So now American car companies would need to produce 2 lines of vehicles (one running on gasoline and one on alternative fuel) or do you expect to fund the infrastucture change in the countries that these car companies export to. This is a more complicated situation than you think and it affects many more companies and individuals in addition to the oil companies. Do you also understand that many INDIVIDUAL Americans make a living on the oil industry? Have you ever travelled the country and met the people who supply oil companies with American oil?

So let's hear your comprehensive plan...

[Mad Co Citizen]

Mr. Retired,

First of, thank you for your service in the Navy. Drilling in Alaska is what I vote for. The reasonings are simple...thinking globally regarding environmental issues, the environment would be better off getting oil out of American soil (with the EPA closely watching) than anywhere else. It is my understanding that the EPA requirements are much more stringent than anywhere else in the world.

I do believe in alternative fuels, but the market is in control now.

[mohican]

The delicate ecosystem arguement for not drilling in ANWAR is pretty redicuous.

First, it would only be a small percentage of the refuce.

Second, to paraphrase Boortz, imagine a WalMart parking lot in North Dakota in the winter, without cars. That's essentially the segment of ANWAR that would be drilled. And guess what, in spite of the pipeline being in alaska for nearly 30 years, the bears are still able to mate and crap in the woods. Whodathunkit?

There are also large reserves of our gulf coast and in Mexico. Want to solve the Mex border issue? One way would be to annex Mexico as the 51st state, and take all their oil. Might as well get something in return......

[TaskForce]

. He relied on intelligence that has NEVER been proven wrong. Think of the scenario I discussed earlier...just because you don't find drugs in your kids room does not mean it was'nt there...do you disagree?




Isn't that known as innocent until proven guilty? It really goes to a greater degree here. We're not talking about drugs in a kid's room or stealing a twinkie from the local Saveway. We were talking about invading another country and overthrowing it's leader. Right or wrong, whatever your view, the case has never been sweeping, convincing, and beyond reproach. Afghanistan was one matter. The Taliban and co. did the dirt, and they got their shit pushed in. That just wasn't the case here.

I can't find the quote, but both Rumsfeld and Rice (as NSA) have both admitted that some intelligence was fabricated... Bush didn't have to admit that because his cabinet did it for him.

[Mad Co Citizen]

I agree...innocent until proven guilty...Simple questions on the Iraq issue...has Iraq had WMD in the last 10 years? Have they used the WMD's on thousands of people? As far as I know, there is no statute of limitation on killing thousands of innocent people because they have a different religious belief.

You wrote: "the case has never been sweeping, convincing, and beyond reproach". Ask the families of the thousands of people murdered by Hussein that question and see what THEY say. Furthermore, the President acted on intelligence, which was limited due to the reduction of our intelligence personnel by the liberals while they were in power, that, once again, President Clinton and Senator Kerry agreed on and commented on numerous times.

Intelligence was fabricated...sounds like determinations were made based on the intelligence available...afterall, that is what the intelligence business is all about. Please find the source of your information and share it. So, President Bush did NOT lie, correct?

[Chia6004]

This guy is a moron no doubt there but I will not disregard everything he says. Our goverment has done many things that border on terrorism, the CIA is the biggest terrorist organization in the world, and are current enemy can not defeat us in an open war. Kinda like how we couldn't defeat the brits in an open field war. We had to turn to other tactics to win are freedom. That is what they consider this war, a war to preserve there culture and identity in the face of an outside invading army.

Terrorism is a tactic that has been used for centuries and it is very effective at promoting change see the founding of are union and anytime a people are oppressed by a foreign power. We call them cowards for the use of terrorism and they lack honor in the way they fight. But what honor can be found in defeating an enemy that never had the slightest chance of beating us?

They consider us a oppressor thats what they feel about us and truthfully after looking at are foreign policy, can you blame em?

We support far worse regimes then Hussein's ever was, I also like how are ties and support for him during the Iran Iraq war have been forgot. We support regimes that oppress millions of people around the world, see Saudi Arabi and company and then we wonder why the populace of those nations hate us.

I do not hate america this is a great nation but we are also not above reproach and its a loyal citizens job to question the actions of their goverment. America has been a force for good in the world but we have also done some very terrible things as well.

As for president Bush he is a terrible leader, he lied to are Nation about wmds in Iraq. All you have to do is follow his public addresses and listen to his refrences about Iraq to see that. "They have Wmds They Have Wmds" Well they may have WMD's" Well he has torture rooms" Well I want to go to mars.

Lets look at the last four years. The economy is the gutter, millions of dollars wasted, his failed tax breaks to stimulate the economy, the war in Iraq(which has lead to the death of 100k+ people), Bin Laden is still free, Al Qaida is regrouping, Union busting going on left and right, guest worker status, Faith Baised Intivate, Patriot act the fu** ups go on and on. But somehow people still feel hes doing a good job???????

People that say well there hasn't been another attack, do you really think were clear? Just last week two Iraqi men were arrested in Mexico with fake Greek passports. The only reason they were arrested was their contact who was going to sneak them across the border presented a expired American passport. Huh I wonder why they wanted to come here? and I wonder how many more have got in.

Bush is screwing over the border patrol the x amount of dollars he was going to give to the border patrol at least thats what he said during the election has been redirected, I guess they didn't have enough money for cheese at his innaguration.

Now his guest worker program. WTF!!!!!!! People talk about Liberal Elitism the comments I've heard from East coast republicans talking about how great this idea is pretty much shows you the Republican elite ideals. California is a glitch and there really isn't that bad of an Illegal Immigration promblem and that you crazy west coasters don't know what your talking about and it would be easier to secure the borders if we gave them guest worker status, somehow its not possible to secure the borders now but it would be if we just let them stay.

How do all of you republicans feel about the Guest worker program. Be careful to because I remeber what alot of you have said about immigration in the past.

[Mad Co Citizen]

You wrote: "As for president Bush he is a terrible leader, he lied to are Nation about wmds in Iraq. All you have to do is follow his public addresses and listen to his refrences about Iraq to see that. "They have Wmds They Have Wmds" Well they may have WMD's" Well he has torture rooms" Well I want to go to mars."

Once again, what did he "Lie" about? If HE lied about the WMDs, then so did President Clinton, Senator Kerry...hell, so did Senator Kennedy!!! Everyone had the SAME intelligence on this one and was saying he had them and that he posed a threat. These were not lies, they were statements based on intelligence.

A majority of your post makes our enemy sound wonderful. They oppose freedom, period. They want to suppress their women and slaughter those who do not believe in their religion (or factions thereof). Our enemy will FIND an infadel no matter what, because that is their ticket to heaven...therefore terrorism is in their heart, it is a necessity in and of itself, NOT because of us. Our enemy is evil...do you not agree? Why do you have a problem confronting evil?

You wrote: "The economy is the gutter, millions of dollars wasted, his failed tax breaks to stimulate the economy, the war in Iraq(which has lead to the death of 100k+ people), Bin Laden is still free, Al Qaida is regrouping, Union busting going on left and right, guest worker status, Faith Baised Intivate, Patriot act the fu** ups go on and on. But somehow people still feel hes doing a good job???????"

Yes, not just "people", but a MAJORITY! That is what an election is about. You obviously voted for the party with whom members have said that the election in Iraq is a farse and that the troops are the major problem in Iraq, among other partisan, mean statements.

I do NOT think we are "clear". I believe that our ideals are such that we will always be vulnerable and we will ALWAYS be a target. Even during the Democratic years, we had attacks, remember? The difference between previous administrations and this one is that BUSH DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT. As for Iraq, what did you want, another 15 UN resolutions so that Hussein could keep thumbing his nose at the MOST corrput organization on the face of the earth. The "Oil for Food" program was a real success, right?

As for the borders, what is your solution? Do you want to kick out all illegals and close the borders? Do you want to line our borders with Canada and Mexico with troops? Come on, what is your solution?

[Mad Co Citizen]

Oh, and by the way, address the questions...

Did Iraq have and USE WMD's on its own people? Yes or No.

[hog]

Oh, and by the way, address the questions...

Did Iraq have and USE WMD's on its own people? Yes or No.
that is an easy question......YES....YES....what did Hussain have to do to make some of you people get your heads out of your asses....the guy is nothing but a bad guy.......thank god we got rid of him.......now please people quit kicking a dead horse and get on with supporting this country and our president........

[TaskForce]

As for Iraq, what did you want, another 15 UN resolutions so that Hussein could keep thumbing his nose at the MOST corrput organization on the face of the earth. The "Oil for Food" program was a real success, right?



Wrong. The Oil for Food Program was one program, allbeit high profile, amongst thousands in the United Nations. The UN is much more than one program, and a corrupt few souls. Did the program start with good intentions? Sure. Did it help the Iraqi citizens? Maybe. Did it end with corruption? Probably. But there are currently 16 peace keeping operations. There are a few dozen UNICEF operations going on, mostly notably in Sudan and Iraq. The WHO and the UN's World Food Programe is preparing to assume major responsibility efforts for tsunami relief. The point is that no other group is equipped to respond to shit like this...Not NATO, not the EU, not ASEAN, not the OAS, or any other regional organization. Its inevitable that a group so big with (admitedly) so much bueracracy would suffer problems with corruption, etc, and for this the UN should be disciplined appropriately. But I guarantee that no nation or nations could or would want to assume responsibility for things that reach beyond national boarders, and neither should they be made to burden the soul responsibility. But to use one fuck-up to characterize the entire organization is like saying that some whacker FF/EMT is a jobber and assuming the rest of his department is, too...

[Chia6004]

"Once again, what did he "Lie" about? If HE lied about the WMDs, then so did President Clinton, Senator Kerry...hell, so did Senator Kennedy!!! Everyone had the SAME intelligence on this one and was saying he had them and that he posed a threat. These were not lies, they were statements based on intelligence."

Intelligence is a word that does not fit the current adminstration. Even if he didn't lie, lets call it a blurring of the facts, he still hurried this nation to war under false pretences, if he knew or didn't is beside the point, He still fucked up if he lied its makes it even worse, I was just assuming that he wasn't a complete moron. Somehow he gets let off the hook though. You say the intelligence was flawed, maybe so, but perhaps we shouldn't have taking intelligence reports from the National Inquirer. He then sent a force into Iraq that wasn't large enough to secure the Nation. Strike two, I guess the right really does like three strikes and your out.

"A majority of your post makes our enemy sound wonderful. They oppose freedom, period."

Not oppose freedom no, they oppose a foreign power controlling their nation. For right are worng a foreign army is occupying their nation.

"They want to suppress their women"

That sounds familiar.

"and slaughter those who do not believe in their religion (or factions thereof)."

That also sounds familiar

"Our enemy will FIND an infadel no matter what, because that is their ticket to heaven...therefore terrorism is in their heart, it is a necessity in and of itself, NOT because of us. Our enemy is evil...do you not agree? Why do you have a problem confronting evil?"

Terrorism: a terrorizing use of terror. 2. condition of fear and submission produced by frightening people 3. method of opposing a government internally through the use of terror. You lose, how exactly does one have a TACTIC in their heart? Some of our enemy is evil yes, the same could be said about some americans, but not every militant in Iraq is evil, alot feel compelled to drive the "infadels" from their land. Others are doing it because they are being manipulated still others feel it is the right thing to do etc. Not everyone who fights against the US is in league with the devil you do realise that right?

I don't have a problem confronting evil no, thats why this War in Iraq angers me, Evil is regrouping and preparing for a counterstrike because Dubya decided that a nation with no army to speak of, no wmds and no means to deliver the non existent WMDs to our shores was a bigger threat then someone who HAD attacked our nation and interests on multiple occasions.

"I do NOT think we are "clear". I believe that our ideals are such that we will always be vulnerable and we will ALWAYS be a target. Even during the Democratic years, we had attacks, remember? The difference between previous administrations and this one is that BUSH DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT. As for Iraq, what did you want, another 15 UN resolutions so that Hussein could keep thumbing his nose at the MOST corrput organization on the face of the earth. The "Oil for Food" program was a real success, right?"

Yes he did something, like allowing the leader of the group to escape and redeploying the troops to fight a needless war. Well atleast he gets an A for effort.

What did I want with Iraq humm maybe actually paying attention to UN weapons inspectors who said that there were NO WMDS in the country.

"As for the borders, what is your solution? Do you want to kick out all illegals and close the borders? Do you want to line our borders with Canada and Mexico with troops? Come on, what is your solution?"

You dodged the question. How do you feel about the guest worker program?????

Yeah kicking the ILLEGALS out sounds like a good start, and then maybe secure the border, maybe actually increase funding to a supposed vital thread for homeland security, but I guess its more important to throw parties for baggage screeners and airport workers then securing the borders. How about outfitting are border patrol agents with enough resources to perform their duties. How about jail time for employers who hire illegal aliens there are many solutions to the promblem but Bush just sticks his fingers in his ears humms real loud and trys everything he can not to hear what needs to be done. He has a tendency to freeze up when it matters most.

I bet your nowhere near the Mexican border right, because you obviously have no idea how bad the situation is. I'am all for Imiigration, this is a nation built of Immigration but I would rather have it be legal so we can tax their wages and make sure everyone who takes a service from us is actually entilted to it.

"Did Iraq have and USE WMD's on its own people? Yes or No."

Yes when Bushes dad was pres, and he was so upste about it he almost itterupted his golf game. Had past tense and use also past tense.

Now answer this. What first world nation outftitted Saddam and supported his use of WMDs on Iran. If you Chose the USA you would be correct. That gets forgot somehow. Actually I do know how but thats neither here nor there.

"what did Hussain have to do to make some of you people get your heads out of your asses....the guy is nothing but a bad guy.......thank god we got rid of him.......now please people quit kicking a dead horse and get on with supporting this country and our president"

Maybe something that was actually a THREAT to this nation that would've been a start. Yes of course he is bad he is evil and deserves to die. But so do Many world leaders and groups.

I have always supported my nation, and my support for my nation supperceds my support for the office of the president. Bush has done NOTHING to earn my loyalty and support and so he shall receive none.

[No Fear]

From some wacko blaming our fallen heroes during 9/11 attack back to Bush lying again on Iraq. Christ when this shit going to end. I'm starting to wonder if some of you are just like Churchill. From a thread that started critizing this asshole as he claims we as American cause 343 firefighter and many others their deaths on 9/11 is insane. Maybe you sure critize this asshole first instead of weapons of mass destruction. They were there one time of day and now their gone, get over it. We all know your feeling on Iraq( more than 1,000. times I know your feeling on Iraq). I was just kidding with Mom at first about nuking them all, but listening to some of this BS , maybe thats not a bad idea after all. Then we won't have nothing to bitch about.

PS I like to see Churchill go to FDNY and talk that shit there. Now that would be news .

[Mad Co Citizen]

Chia,

"You say the intelligence was flawed" - No I NEVER said that. I believe that the intelligence was correct. Give me proof that the weapons never existed. Give me proof that they were not moved to another country. You have none, but there is proof that they existed in the recent past, right? Did Clinton AND Kerry NOT say so?

"He then sent a force into Iraq that wasn't large enough to secure the Nation." Who are you, General Monday? The operation has been a complete success from a military standpoint. How long did it take our military to be in downtown Baghdad? How long did you liberals say it would take before the war? I rest my case.

"Not oppose freedom no, they oppose a foreign power controlling their nation. For right are worng a foreign army is occupying their nation." Who is THEY? The Iraqis that voted? We are acting as liberators, plain and simple...and to call our troops anything else is a slap in their face. You should be ashamed of yourself...you are just sore from losing the election...sore that a majority of Americans SUPPORT our president.

"That sounds familiar." It should because it is the cold, hard truth.

"Yes he did something, like allowing the leader of the group to escape and redeploying the troops to fight a needless war. Well atleast he gets an A for effort." I am sure Bush appreciates the A, but we did not "let" anyone go. If you are referring to the OBL incident, local rebels were sent to do the job themselves...which DID turn out to be a mistake, but I thought you liberals would be FOR our military taking a secondary role in the region when the locals want to do it themselves?

"Terrorism: a terrorizing use of terror. 2. condition of fear and submission produced by frightening people 3. method of opposing a government internally through the use of terror. You lose, how exactly does one have a TACTIC in their heart?" I lose? That is really cute...how, you want to know? The fanatic religious factions teach this as a right of passage. 'You will be rewarded in heaven with virgins if you blow yourself up and kill the infadel.' It IS in their heart because they believe that they will have divine rewards.

"I don't have a problem confronting evil." Very funny. Saddam was evil and you have a BIG problem confronting him (and I do not mean through the UN resolutions that NEVER WORKED).

"Evil is regrouping and preparing for a counterstrike because Dubya decided that a nation with no army to speak of" - NOT TRUE, but most of them did not want to be in the army in the first place - "no wmds" - yeah, right - "and no means to deliver the non existent WMDs to our shores" - Isolationist, you are; you probably would have been against getting into WWII prior to Dec. 7, 1941, right?

"Not oppose freedom no, they oppose a foreign power controlling their nation. For right are worng a foreign army is occupying their nation" So the insurgents do NOT oppose freedom? What?

Immigration...you want to kick the illegals out and arrest those who hired them? Wow, do you realize the enormity and impact that would have?

Bush "has a tendency to freeze up when it matters most." I disagree completely...he has a tendency to defend this country, despite the liberals who want to freeze up and do nothing. He has a tendency to get the support of a majority of the people, too.

"Yes when Bushes dad was pres, and he was so upste about it he almost itterupted his golf game." Once again, real cute. No substance in this statement at all.

"force into Iraq that wasn't large enough", "a needless war", "foreign army is occupying their nation" - Those are great lines to let our troops know they are supported...you should be ashamed of yourself.

"Bush has done NOTHING to earn my loyalty and support and so he shall receive none" November proved that he does NOT need your loyalty or support, period.

[mohican]

" "A majority of your post makes our enemy sound wonderful. They oppose freedom, period."

Not oppose freedom no, they oppose a foreign power controlling their nation. For right are worng a foreign army is occupying their nation.



For the most part, it's not the Iraqui's opposing our troops, it muslim extremist from other nations. I won't even dignify them by calling them insurgant's. They are not freedom fighters. If 60% of the population turns out to vote, then it's certainly not a majority opposition.

Which is the best part of the whole deal. They're not trying to sneak over here. They are trying to take on our troops over there.

[Outofdaloop]

EMTMom and Chia 6004 if either of you had left your cozy confines shortly after September 11th, 2001 and seen the devastation at the World Trade Center in person. Or gone to an FDNY hero's service. You would both have realized that after September 11th the Middle East HAD TO CHANGE!!!

With the exception of Oklahoma City, extremists from the Middle East have been responsible for every terrorist attack against U.S. targets in the last 20+ years. The Soviet Union no longer existed to oppose us there. Now No Fear suggested Nuking the area and starting over which may have been a little too drastic for the rest of the world. But seriously, the ONLY way to make our country safe and to prevent another devastating attack was to eliminate the breeding ground of those who want to attack us. Democracy is, as we have seen, with recent elections in Afghanistan and Iraq, a wonderful thing!!

What we are doing in the Middle East now will make us and our world safer for generations to come!!

Is this an easy idea to present to the American public?(I am anticipating your responses) Probably not. We knew there WERE weapons there and that Hussein was interested in and would like to have more powerful weapons of mass destruction. Every intelligence agency in the world said they were there. Even the UN that "Tower of Rightousness" said so. But who's opposition to U.S. actions, along with France and others, can easily be seen as disingenuous, at the very least, considering the "Oil for Food" scandal now being investigated.

But regardless, even if the WMD's were no longer there and we knew about it, the world changed that fateful autumn day and we could no longer hide our head in the sand and keep our fingers crossed and hope for safety here at home. We had to see to it that the "change" brought to us ended up being "change" in our favor, whatever it took.

With weapon technologies changing, possibly making more destructive weapons readily available, in the not so distant future, we had to act now to safeguard America and in turn the rest of the world.

I doubt either of you, nor the others like you, will understand this. But let me assure you of one thing. Your children and your children's children will live in a world safe from terrorism as we have known it. And they will thank you. Maybe never 100% safe. There will always be a nut job here or there. But no more breeding ground for thousands of terrorists. And large networks in numerous countries. The oppression that has made them angry and in turn hate America will be gone soon. Democracy and Freedom will spread like wildfire from Afghanistan and Iraq to the greater Middle East and beyond.

The world as we knew it was indelibly altered that day and it was our turn to do for our decendents what "The Greatest Generation" did for us. Rid the world of the pervasive evil of our time and make the it safer for all who follow.

We are eternally indebted to the soldiers sacrificing for us.

As I told friends in the winter of 2001 "The only bright side is that I know President Bush will do whatever is necessary to ensure that our children and grandchildren grow up in a world devoid of such destruction, as seen on September 11th"

Everyone be safe and NEVER forget the Brothers who so nobly and so selflessly gave their lives that so many others may live.

[Emtmom]

EMTMom and Chia 6004 if either of you had left your cozy confines shortly after September 11th, 2001 and seen the devastation at the World Trade Center in person. Or gone to an FDNY hero's service. You would both have realized that after September 11th the Middle East HAD TO CHANGE!!!I don't disagree that things had to change, and we should have gone into Afghanistan!

With the exception of Oklahoma City, extremists from the Middle East have been responsible for every terrorist attack against U.S. targets in the last 20+ years. The Soviet Union no longer existed to oppose us there. Now No Fear suggested Nuking the area and starting over which may have been a little too drastic for the rest of the world. But seriously, the ONLY way to make our country safe and to prevent another devastating attack was to eliminate the breeding ground of those who want to attack us. Democracy is, as we have seen, with recent elections in Afghanistan and Iraq, a wonderful thing!! If you think the election is going to make it all better, you need to open your eyes! So far the elections have made the attacks worse. Sure they got to vote, but what does that really mean? Does that mean the US can leave now, the new Govt. will take over and END terrorism! I'm glad you think so, if you don't mind though, I live in the real world and will not believe that until I see them actually running their own country without all the attacks! Until ALL of our service men and women are home safe!

What we are doing in the Middle East now will make us and our world safer for generations to come!! The middle East is not the only place there are terrorists. What we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan is NOT going to eliminate the terrorists. Even Bush has the sense to realize that!





I doubt either of you, nor the others like you, will understand this. But let me assure you of one thing. Your children and your children's children will live in a world safe from terrorism as we have known it. And they will thank you. Maybe never 100% safe. There will always be a nut job here or there. But no more breeding ground for thousands of terrorists. And large networks in numerous countries. The oppression that has made them angry and in turn hate America will be gone soon. Democracy and Freedom will spread like wildfire from Afghanistan and Iraq to the greater Middle East and beyond.
You'll excuse me if I withhold my opinion on that until it's a proven fact!

[Mad Co Citizen]

Outofdaloop,

You are definitely NOT out of the loop, my friend.

Emtmom,

Your last post had one very interesting comment: "You'll excuse me if I withhold my opinion on that until it's a proven fact!" I appreciate this comment, actually. I just wish the liberal politicians and Hollywood liberal elite would do the same. If you do not like war, fine...just say 'I don't like war'...but to say that this or that cannot be done (e.g. it will take months to liberate Baghdad or there will never be an election in Iraq in January - all WRONG) in the middle of the operations is not productive and accomplishes nothing.

You wrote: "Sure they got to vote, but what does that really mean?" Wow, that is unbelievable. What does it mean? Do you really need that explained to you?

[Chia6004]

"EMTMom and Chia 6004 if either of you had left your cozy confines shortly after September 11th, 2001 and seen the devastation at the World Trade Center in person. Or gone to an FDNY hero's service. You would both have realized that after September 11th the Middle East HAD TO CHANGE!!!"

Yes Afganistan had to be dealt with of course, the nation that supported the people who attacked our country needed to be fixed. Iraq on the other hand a nation with no ties to Bin laden are Al Qaida and No wmds are a program to develop them was somehow a bigger threat then the people who actually attacked us.

With the exception of Oklahoma City, extremists from the Middle East have been responsible for every terrorist attack against U.S. targets in the last 20+ years. The Soviet Union no longer existed to oppose us there. Now No Fear suggested Nuking the area and starting over which may have been a little too drastic for the rest of the world. But seriously, the ONLY way to make our country safe and to prevent another devastating attack was to eliminate the breeding ground of those who want to attack us. Democracy is, as we have seen, with recent elections in Afghanistan and Iraq, a wonderful thing!!

You don't really believe that by us inmposing our will on people who hate us for that very reason will lead to end of terrorism do you. As i pointed out in my last thread terrorism is a TACTIC that will be employed by a people who have no chance to defeat their enemies through tradtional military methods. Militarily we can't lose however Militarily we can't win this war. It is immpossible to defeat a TACTIC.

What we are doing in the Middle East now will make us and our world safer for generations to come!!

You keep telling yourself that. Because we can see how safe and stable both Iraq and Afganistan are right now. Anti American sentiment has INCREASED since the invasion of Iraq and it will only continue to rise.

Is this an easy idea to present to the American public?(I am anticipating your responses) Probably not. We knew there WERE weapons there and that Hussein was interested in and would like to have more powerful weapons of mass destruction. Every intelligence agency in the world said they were there. Even the UN that "Tower of Rightousness" said so. But who's opposition to U.S. actions, along with France and others, can easily be seen as disingenuous, at the very least, considering the "Oil for Food" scandal now being investigated.

Yes there WERE weapons there over a DECADADE ago. Wait he was a threat because he was interested in them. LMFAO Republicans will say anything to support this president.

As for the UN of course they had other motives who doesn't, but there is a reason we have an International body and rules to go along with that body, But I guess they dont apply to us right. Of course not.

But regardless, even if the WMD's were no longer there and we knew about it, the world changed that fateful autumn day and we could no longer hide our head in the sand and keep our fingers crossed and hope for safety here at home. We had to see to it that the "change" brought to us ended up being "change" in our favor, whatever it took.

The change took place long ago americans just refused to hear it and deal with it.

I doubt either of you, nor the others like you, will understand this. But let me assure you of one thing. Your children and your children's children will live in a world safe from terrorism as we have known it. And they will thank you. Maybe never 100% safe. There will always be a nut job here or there.

Yes I don't undersand how increasing anti american sentiment, invading a Nation with no ties to Al Qaida are a WMD program, not securing the borders and allowing the people who attacked us to get away has made us safer. But then again as a democrat I have a need for what I say to make sense.

"But no more breeding ground for thousands of terrorists. And large networks in numerous countries. The oppression that has made them angry and in turn hate America will be gone soon. Democracy and Freedom will spread like wildfire from Afghanistan and Iraq to the greater Middle East and beyond."

If you actually believe that I need the same drugs your on. Have you heard the saying something given has no value, freedom has to be EARNED it can't be given. Afganistan outside of Kabul the nation is much the same it was prior to the invasion. Do you really think that those nations will stand on their own after we leave.

[Mad Co Citizen]

Chia,

One word, and I quote the sign language of your pal, Michael Moore:

"Loser"

The drug you are referring to is common sense, and you can't buy it. An example of common sense is:

You are driving a young lady home after a party. You run off the road into a body of water. You come to the surface and then try to save the woman. You fail and then swim to safety. COMMON SENSE says call for help immediately , right? You probably believe Ted was not drunk, too, right?

Now THAT is an example of "Somehow he gets let off the hook though." Right???

[Chia6004]

did that post have a point?

[Outofdaloop]

Emtmom and Chia both of you denegrate the attempt to bring freedom and democracy to the ENTIRE Middle East then complain about the fact that things haven't drastically changed for the better overnight? I am sure you both thought President Reagan was a lunatic and leading us to armegeddon with his military buildup and strong stance against the now defunct Soviet Union. Or at least your parent's did. The forced collapse of that tyrannical state and the communism that pervaded it and it's neighbors didn't happen overnight and neither will this. Especially considering the number of years it had taken to get to the situation in the Middle East on September 11th, 2001.

I reiterate if you had witnessed the devastation first hand of that day your opinion would be significantly if not completely different. You would never again want to be so helpless in the face of such incomprehensible destruction. And you would realize that whatever was needed to prevent a future catastrophe had to be done. And freeing these peoples will do more to make us safe than you will ever care to admit even 20 years from now.

The winds of change are blowing in the desert sands and while your impatience and skepticism seem to be more prevalent than most you will nonetheless note that the new friendlier, wholly democratic Middle East was first prognosticated here by me on Super Bowl Sunday 2005. And when your grandkids send you post cards from their class trip to that soon to be free land you can smile knowing that they are safe and relish in the difference we have made in this wonderful world!!

[Mad Co Citizen]

Chia, yes it did.

I will explain it to you...

The "loser" comment was referring to 1) the fact that the liberals lost all hope of power in the last election and 2) it is ironic that Mr. Moore gave the "L" sign at the RNC, which was proven overwhelmingly wrong in November.

The common sense description was in response to your comment: "If you actually believe that I need the same drugs your on." Yes, I know that common sense is not a drug...this was the only thing that popped in my head based on your senseless comment.

The story, if you do not know, is a TRUE story about Senator Kennedy of Massachussetts.

[Chia6004]

Ok that was just all over the place I wasn't completly sure what you were refering to.

Common sense in reference to the post I was rediculing somehow those don't seem to go hand in hand.

As for the supposed "senseless comment" I was refering to the fact that someone who actually believes that you can Force a group of people into something they don't want and then expect the rest of the region to in turn follow the same way must have some really good drugs.

As for the story I'am aware of it and I still fail to see how it applies to this conversation but anyways. I can trow around attacks about politicans who aren't apart of my party in an attempt to elicit a reaction as well. I, however, prefer to keep the discussion some what rooted in the current topic.

As for moore I love how republicans always assume that if you don't like Bush you must love that fat A$$. I will not even respond to such a useless analogy.

Emtmom and Chia both of you denegrate the attempt to bring freedom and democracy to the ENTIRE Middle East then complain about the fact that things haven't drastically changed for the better overnight? I am sure you both thought President Reagan was a lunatic and leading us to armegeddon with his military buildup and strong stance against the now defunct Soviet Union. Or at least your parent's did. The forced collapse of that tyrannical state and the communism that pervaded it and it's neighbors didn't happen overnight and neither will this. Especially considering the number of years it had taken to get to the situation in the Middle East on September 11th, 2001.

Yes I'am because this war was never about bringing "freedom to the middle east" nor freedom are liberation to Iraq.

I reiterate if you had witnessed the devastation first hand of that day your opinion would be significantly if not completely different. You would never again want to be so helpless in the face of such incomprehensible destruction. And you would realize that whatever was needed to prevent a future catastrophe had to be done. And freeing these peoples will do more to make us safe than you will ever care to admit even 20 years from now.


The winds of change are blowing in the desert sands and while your impatience and skepticism seem to be more prevalent than most you will nonetheless note that the new friendlier, wholly democratic Middle East was first prognosticated here by me on Super Bowl Sunday 2005. And when your grandkids send you post cards from their class trip to that soon to be free land you can smile knowing that they are safe and relish in the difference we have made in this wonderful world!!

When did all these changes happen friendlier and wholly democratic. [dace_rolls_eyes]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/02/06/iraq050206.html .36 dead

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050207/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq .4 abductions

Sounds real "friendly and wholly democratic" to me.

[No Fear]

[QUOTE=Chia6004]
Common sense in reference to the post I was rediculing somehow those don't seem to go hand in hand.

As for the story I'am aware of it and I still fail to see how it applies to this conversation but anyways. I can trow around attacks about politicans who aren't apart of my party in an attempt to elicit a reaction as well. I, however, prefer to keep the discussion some what rooted in the current topic.

Chia you make the above comment when this thread orginally started with Churchill, not Bush or Iraq, or WMD. So how were you keeping with the orginal thread when you talk all this shit.

[Emtmom]

You wrote: "Sure they got to vote, but what does that really mean?" Wow, that is unbelievable. What does it mean? Do you really need that explained to you?What I meant was, is it really going to matter? Are they going to be able to take hold and run the country?
I understand how improtant it was, I just wonder if it will really make a difference. Guess I should have been more clear.

[Chia6004]

Somehow I missed this post.

"You say the intelligence was flawed" - No I NEVER said that. I believe that the intelligence was correct. Give me proof that the weapons never existed. Give me proof that they were not moved to another country. You have none, but there is proof that they existed in the recent past, right? Did Clinton AND Kerry NOT say so?"

Oh please, I can return the same load of BS you just spouted. Give me proof that they existed and that they were moved to another nation. I prefer to keep the discussion somewhat rational. If I wanted to hear fairy tales I would go to church.

Recent past as in over A freaking DECADE AGO.

"He then sent a force into Iraq that wasn't large enough to secure the Nation." Who are you, General Monday? The operation has been a complete success from a military standpoint. How long did it take our military to be in downtown Baghdad? How long did you liberals say it would take before the war? I rest my case.

look at the Roman Empire as a great example, it takes less soldiers to conquer a Nation then to adqueatly Secure it. If that is a tough concept for you look at the continued violence in the Country and you will see how secure the country really is. There was a memo out of the pentagon that the force that was sent into the nation wasn't large enough to adqueatly secure it.

"Not oppose freedom no, they oppose a foreign power controlling their nation. For right are worng a foreign army is occupying their nation." Who is THEY? The Iraqis that voted? We are acting as liberators, plain and simple...and to call our troops anything else is a slap in their face. You should be ashamed of yourself...you are just sore from losing the election...sore that a majority of Americans SUPPORT our president.

I'm happy your here to tell me how I feel. How about we go to a mosque in Darfur and ask those people what they feel about the "American Liberators" oh thats right those people are no longer there. Ok how about anyother mosque in the entire region and ask them.

Yeah and a majority of Americans are STUPID, when 67% of Americans think that DNA evidence is unreliable that shows you the intellect of this nation.

"That sounds familiar." It should because it is the cold, hard truth.

I thought that was easy to understand ok I will spell it out. I was refering to the fact that America has a very long history of suppresing our women and the fact that we still pay our women less money for an equal job. America Became enlightend when we moved away from religon that is all the middle east needs is Secularism.

"Yes he did something, like allowing the leader of the group to escape and redeploying the troops to fight a needless war. Well atleast he gets an A for effort." I am sure Bush appreciates the A, but we did not "let" anyone go. If you are referring to the OBL incident, local rebels were sent to do the job themselves...which DID turn out to be a mistake, but I thought you liberals would be FOR our military taking a secondary role in the region when the locals want to do it themselves?

Actually I was refering to redploying the troops in afghanistan to Iraq and that contributing to the fact of Bin Ladens continued freedom.

"Terrorism: a terrorizing use of terror. 2. condition of fear and submission produced by frightening people 3. method of opposing a government internally through the use of terror. You lose, how exactly does one have a TACTIC in their heart?" I lose? That is really cute...how, you want to know? The fanatic religious factions teach this as a right of passage. 'You will be rewarded in heaven with virgins if you blow yourself up and kill the infadel.' It IS in their heart because they believe that they will have divine rewards.

They still don't have a TACTIC in their heart read the damn definition. What you describe is murder not TERRORISM. When we kill innocents we call it collateral damage when they do it you call it terrorism. I'm sure to the family of those that we killed, murder whatever the hell you want to call it don't see ANY difference.

"I don't have a problem confronting evil." Very funny. Saddam was evil and you have a BIG problem confronting him (and I do not mean through the UN resolutions that NEVER WORKED).

Sadam was evil so our many people around the world many of our ALLIES have done far worse things then Sadam ever did. How about the Genocide performed by are allies the Turks are the Brits war with Argentina to preserve their Empire. Then some of the things that this nation has done, But I guess then it was all for a good cause right.

And please if that was the reason we went into Iraq then please explain to me why the FUCK we aren't in the Sudan right now.

"Evil is regrouping and preparing for a counterstrike because Dubya decided that a nation with no army to speak of" - NOT TRUE, but most of them did not want to be in the army in the first place - "no wmds" - yeah, right - "and no means to deliver the non existent WMDs to our shores" - Isolationist, you are; you probably would have been against getting into WWII prior to Dec. 7, 1941, right?

Where are the WMDS then, and I don't want to hear anymore fairy tales. How the hell did you get Isolationist from that statement. I guess I'll draw a picture for you. They had no booms and no swushs to get them here.

Funny you should mention WW2. Actually it was people of your ilk that were against becoming involved in that war prior to DEC 7. People that have a indifference to the International community and feel that the needs of our natoin are more important then the needs of the world.

"Not oppose freedom no, they oppose a foreign power controlling their nation. For right are worng a foreign army is occupying their nation" So the insurgents do NOT oppose freedom? What?

Their concept of freedom is different then ours.

Immigration...you want to kick the illegals out and arrest those who hired them? Wow, do you realize the enormity and impact that would have?

Yes I do, seeing as how these people are doing illegal things I thought republicans were against things like that. Do you understand the enormity and impact of telling the interanational community to go fuck themselves and that its our way are no way?

I bet that people would stop employing illegals if there was a stiff consquence for doing so.

Bush "has a tendency to freeze up when it matters most." I disagree completely...he has a tendency to defend this country, despite the liberals who want to freeze up and do nothing. He has a tendency to get the support of a majority of the people, too.

The only time he got the Majority was last election, In case you don't remeber he lost the popular vote the first time. I was refering to his actions the morning of 9/11 you remeber sitting there like a dear in the head lights.

"Yes when Bushes dad was pres, and he was so upste about it he almost itterupted his golf game." Once again, real cute. No substance in this statement at all.

No substance really ok I will use third grader mentality again. Like a hundred years ago Bushes Daddy was president when the bad man used the booms and the daddy didn't care.

"force into Iraq that wasn't large enough", "a needless war", "foreign army is occupying their nation" - Those are great lines to let our troops know they are supported...you should be ashamed of yourself.

I do support are troops the difference is I refuse to accept the party line that this was a war that had to be fought. All that are troops ask is that we don't send them into a war without cause. I'am doing my part to ensure they return safely and as quickly as possible. They are there because people wouldn't ask questions of this president to produce proof. Remember he said they knew exactly where the weapons were, soulds like a load of BS to me.

[Chia6004]

Chia you make the above comment when this thread orginally started with Churchill, not Bush or Iraq, or WMD. So how were you keeping with the orginal thread when you talk all this shit.

I just joined the conversation that was already going. My first post was in reference to churchill the conversation about Bush and WMD's was ongoing when I arrived.

[Emtmom]

An example of common sense is:

You are driving a young lady home after a party. You run off the road into a body of water. You come to the surface and then try to save the woman. You fail and then swim to safety. COMMON SENSE says call for help immediately , right? You probably believe Ted was not drunk, too, right?

Now THAT is an example of "Somehow he gets let off the hook though." Right???
Ted Kennedy belongs in prison, he KILLED that girl. Thing is, he's a KENNEDY, and his family has the cash they needed to get him off! If it had been someone without the name and the cash, they would be in prison.

[Mad Co Citizen]

Chia,

You wrote, about the WMDs: "Recent past as in over A freaking DECADE AGO. "

So you agree that Saddam had WMDs?
So you agree that he used them on hundreds of thousands of his own people?

So now are you saying is that this evil dictator (agreed?) just woke up one day and said 'You know, I don't need these anymore...I think I will just destroy them all.'?

If not, then what happened to them and the WMD program/infrastructure in Iraq?

Talk about a fairy tail.

You wrote: "If I wanted to hear fairy tales I would go to church."

Wow. I am not a religious person, but I have RESPECT for those that have beliefs. You should have a little respect also. I think an apology to those that DO go to church is in order.

"look at the Roman Empire as a great example, it takes less soldiers to conquer a Nation then to adqueatly Secure it." We are NOT conquering this nation, period. The Romans invaded, pilfered and took everything...we are not, period.

You choose to read a "memo out of the pentagon"...I chose to read General Franks book, which tells of the mistakes made and the successes. I assume you will not read his book, but if you truly want to know what happened with regard to the number of troops and the transition from Afghanistan to Iraq, then you should.

"How about we go to a mosque in Darfur and ask those people what they feel about the "American Liberators" oh thats right those people are no longer there. Ok how about anyother mosque in the entire region and ask them."

Sure, let's go...when we get there, why don't you tell them that their religion is a "fairy tale"!!

"Yeah and a majority of Americans are STUPID, when 67% of Americans think that DNA evidence is unreliable that shows you the intellect of this nation."

Did you watch/listen/read the State of the Union address? President Bush addressed the DNA issue and is pushing for expanded use. Calling 67% of Americans stupid is not productive and just reinforces the fact that the left thinks of themselves as the elite and everyone that does not kiss their rosy ass is STUPID.

I was refering to the fact that America has a very long history of suppresing our women and the fact that we still pay our women less money for an equal job. America Became enlightend when we moved away from religon that is all the middle east needs is Secularism.

There you go again...you are trying to flip the scenario back on the good old USA. You liberals are unbelievable. We do not accept the beating of women, we do not cover them up, we do not use them as pawns, we do not restrict them from education...AND our court system is taking care of the problems at hand in OUR country...look at Wal-Mart...they learned their lesson.

Now I understand why you hate Bush...he is a religious man who talks about God all of the time. Right? I am not religious, but the ten commandments are ok with me! Like it or not, our country was founded on principles and values that have religious connections...and I have no problem with it. Separation of church and state is one thing, but removing the evidence of religion is another.

"Their concept of freedom is different from ours." You are corret!!!! Please explain what their concept of freedom is. Do it!!!

"They still don't have a TACTIC in their heart read the damn definition."

I have already explained this...you are anti-religion and therefore would not understand.

"When we kill innocents we call it collateral damage when they do it you call it terrorism."

When they do what? Stop a bus of unarmed Iraqi soldiers and slaughter them? You want to compare that to people killed because they were too close to a military target?

Let's talk about intent...

What is the intent of the US military? Answer it!!!!
Now, what is the intent of the insurgents?

That is where the difference lies.

"Sadam was evil so our many people around the world many of our ALLIES have done far worse things then Sadam ever did. How about the Genocide performed by are allies the Turks are the Brits war with Argentina to preserve their Empire. Then some of the things that this nation has done, But I guess then it was all for a good cause right."

List (and not 50 years ago) the "things that this nation has done." Then do your liberal comparison to what is going on in Iraq.

"Do you understand the enormity and impact of telling the interanational community to go fuck themselves and that its our way are no way?"

This one is funny. Our country went to the UN and explained the failure of the resolutions for which "there would be severe consequences." Then formed a coalition (NOT alone) and did the UN's dirty work for them. I do understand the enormity and impact of what we did...and I am glad that we did it.

You sit there and pretty much tell Bush to go fuck himself but want to appease the rest of world. BUT the STUPID Americans out voted you, so there you have it...if it becomes unbearable, there are plenty of options, are'nt there? You can go to Canada and enjoy their wonderful health care plan that is failing miserably...or you can go to France and get taxed to death.

"Where are the WMDS then, and I don't want to hear anymore fairy tales. How the hell did you get Isolationist from that statement. I guess I'll draw a picture for you. They had no booms and no swushs to get them here."

You said that they did not have the means to get them to our shores...implying so then why would we care? Where are the WMDs..maybe they are in the Mosques, where fairy tales are taught? We can go on and on...prove this, prove that...but what DO we know? That he had them and used them in the recent past (not 50 years ago). Draw all the pictures you like, pal, but they were there and were moved...I have no proof, you are correct, but common sense prevails.

"Actually it was people of your ilk that were against becoming involved in that war prior to DEC 7." Completely wrong...I was not alive and times have changed...we STUPID people have LEARNED from our history. If we had attacked the Japanese fleet BEFORE it launched the attack, the Japs would have claimed an unprevoked attack, and people of your ilk would have been spreading their anti-American BS, just like you are today.

"The only time he got the Majority was last election, In case you don't remeber he lost the popular vote the first time." Thanks for pointing that out...he did not get the majority BEFORE his actions in the middle east, but DID afterwards. That speaks for itself...I know, I know, we are stupid, right?

"I was refering to his actions the morning of 9/11 you remeber sitting there like a dear in the head lights."

I would rather have a president that takes a few seconds (that is all it was...you liberals act like it was a month or so...AND he was in front a bunch of kids...what did you want him to do, jump up and down and scream 'Oh My GOD!!!') and then takes care of business than a president that bombs a few buildings, says a few stern words and then moves on like nothing happened (President Clinton). Liberals grabbing at straws...that is all that issue is about.

Your comment about the former Bush...he is criticized for stopping short of Baghdad...the Bushes cannot win with you liberals....and what happened 100 years ago? Booms? Are you IN the third grade?

"I do support are troops the difference is I refuse to accept the party line that this was a war that had to be fought. All that are troops ask is that we don't send them into a war without cause. I'am doing my part to ensure they return safely and as quickly as possible. They are there because people wouldn't ask questions of this president to produce proof."

I am tired of repeating myself. Most people believed he had them...Clinton, Kerry, etc. included. You are doing your part? You are doing your part to denigrate our men and women in uniform. It is just a shame that you do not see that.

[mohican]

I still think people keep redefining WMD to whatever suits their purpose

We detonated enough DMX in the desert to flatten NYC or LA several times over

They were working towards building nuclear weapons

Abu Graib? in reality, probably not as depraved as a weekend in the Kennedy Compound.

My only admiration for FDR is his prosecution of WWII. Today's libs should get a clue from the USAs leading socialist on how to run a war. They should also look at the republicans of that day on how to be a dissenting party. Once the bullets started flying, the opposition party got behind the troops. Newspapers running AbuGraib stories would have been quickly shut down for sedition.

If we really wanted the lowest possible casulties overseas we should take a leaf out of FDR's (Or Abe Lincoln's) book.

The actions of Kennedy, Kerry, Feinswine, Schumers hows that the Democratic party has no honor, integrity, or respect for the republic. CBS has shown that the main stream media, while never being impartial, has devoted itself to one cause. They deserve to be tanking as they are.

[Chia6004]

Chia,

You wrote, about the WMDs: "Recent past as in over A freaking DECADE AGO. "

So you agree that Saddam had WMDs?
So you agree that he used them on hundreds of thousands of his own people?

So now are you saying is that this evil dictator (agreed?) just woke up one day and said 'You know, I don't need these anymore...I think I will just destroy them all.'?

Yes he did use them and he was supported by the US when he used them.

No he didn't wake up and dismantle his program, the international community did that during the Gulf War.

If not, then what happened to them and the WMD program/infrastructure in Iraq?

See above.

Talk about a fairy tail.

You wrote: "If I wanted to hear fairy tales I would go to church."

Wow. I am not a religious person, but I have RESPECT for those that have beliefs. You should have a little respect also. I think an apology to those that DO go to church is in order.

So let me get this straight I have to respect an institution that has no respect for my beliefs and has tortured murderd and oppressed people that think like me for centuries. Right.

I will apologise to them when they apologise for everything that has been done to us throughout the centuries.

"look at the Roman Empire as a great example, it takes less soldiers to conquer a Nation then to adqueatly Secure it." We are NOT conquering this nation, period. The Romans invaded, pilfered and took everything...we are not, period.

Way to dance around the issue I commend your evasive tactics. Actually we did CONQUER it. Once again try to understand the words that you are using.
Conquer: get by fighting win in war 2. overcome by force, defeat.

What you described as Conquering isn't really conquering but whatever I have no time to adqueatly increase your vocabualry to a point of coherency.

You avoided the point that was made as well, the continued violence in the Country proves that either, Bush sent a less then adequate force to secure the country or, never had any intention to secure it.

You choose to read a "memo out of the pentagon"...I chose to read General Franks book, which tells of the mistakes made and the successes. I assume you will not read his book, but if you truly want to know what happened with regard to the number of troops and the transition from Afghanistan to Iraq, then you should.

"How about we go to a mosque in Darfur and ask those people what they feel about the "American Liberators" oh thats right those people are no longer there. Ok how about anyother mosque in the entire region and ask them."

Sure, let's go...when we get there, why don't you tell them that their religion is a "fairy tale"!!

Way to avoid the point again answer the question are ignore it, but these tactics won't work. I have argued with people that actually have a clue about what they are talking about and with people that use these tactics to try and win the argument. Everytime you use these tactics is points against you.

"Yeah and a majority of Americans are STUPID, when 67% of Americans think that DNA evidence is unreliable that shows you the intellect of this nation."

Did you watch/listen/read the State of the Union address? President Bush addressed the DNA issue and is pushing for expanded use. Calling 67% of Americans stupid is not productive and just reinforces the fact that the left thinks of themselves as the elite and everyone that does not kiss their rosy ass is STUPID.

I never said Bush was Stupid, I think he is very intellegent he just uses other peoples "lack of understanding" to gain support for his policies. He also uses scare tactics and bullying but that too is a sign of intellect He understands americans and human nature and what gets us to move.

I called a book a book, if you can't deal with that I'm sorry, when 67% of Americans think that DNA evidence is unreliable they ARE STUPID.

I was refering to the fact that America has a very long history of suppresing our women and the fact that we still pay our women less money for an equal job. America Became enlightend when we moved away from religon that is all the middle east needs is Secularism.

There you go again...you are trying to flip the scenario back on the good old USA. You liberals are unbelievable. We do not accept the beating of women, we do not cover them up, we do not use them as pawns, we do not restrict them from education...AND our court system is taking care of the problems at hand in OUR country...look at Wal-Mart...they learned their lesson.

Way to go you got it now. The point is that America has done some very terrible things and have only become enlightened in the last few decades. Don't get me started about Wal-Mart we will be here for days.

Now I understand why you hate Bush...he is a religious man who talks about God all of the time. Right? I am not religious, but the ten commandments are ok with me! Like it or not, our country was founded on principles and values that have religious connections...and I have no problem with it. Separation of church and state is one thing, but removing the evidence of religion is another.

As they are with me, they no longer apply but I don't care if they are displayed are not. And thats not why I hate Bush, I have much better reasons to hate him other then his ignorance.

"Their concept of freedom is different from ours." You are corret!!!! Please explain what their concept of freedom is. Do it!!!

They want to be able to govern their nations they way they choose free from outside intervention and influence from the West. Some want to embrace western Ideals in some of the nations in the mid east and thats great. Others want to retain their traditional therocracy, why I don't agree with that form of goverment, that too is fine.

I bet if you asked the average Iraqi Man if they would rather have their sister wearing a mini skirt are live under a theocracy that forbids that. They would choose the later.

"They still don't have a TACTIC in their heart read the damn definition."

I have already explained this...you are anti-religion and therefore would not understand.

No you didn't what you said was an example of murder not terrorism. They want to kill infadels to make it into heaven not scare the infadels so they can make into heaven. Once again read and understand the words you use.

"When we kill innocents we call it collateral damage when they do it you call it terrorism."

When they do what? Stop a bus of unarmed Iraqi soldiers and slaughter them? You want to compare that to people killed because they were too close to a military target?

Actually I was reffering to 9/11, If this is truthfully a war and Bin ladens target was the economic and military structures of the US then by our definition they are colateral damage.

Hold on unarmed soldiers in a war zone? If they are soldiers that makes them military targets and if they didn't arm themselves well that was their mistake.

Let's talk about intent...

What is the intent of the US military? Answer it!!!!
Now, what is the intent of the insurgents?

Yes I'm sure that the family of those killed really care about the intent of the one who pulled the trigger. I'm sure the families of the 100k iraqis killed in this conflict care that the Americans weren't as bad as Huessien.
That is where the difference lies.

"Sadam was evil so our many people around the world many of our ALLIES have done far worse things then Sadam ever did. How about the Genocide performed by are allies the Turks are the Brits war with Argentina to preserve their Empire. Then some of the things that this nation has done, But I guess then it was all for a good cause right."

List (and not 50 years ago) the "things that this nation has done." Then do your liberal comparison to what is going on in Iraq.

My Lai Massacre
Operation PAPERCLIP
Greece 1947, you know the greeks do hate us for a reason right, a very justifable reason. During the cold war we backed leaders with far worse human rights violations then Sadam ever had. The CIA also assited those goverments in putting down protests and rebellions.
Iran 1953

Operation MK-ULTRA
Guatemala 1954 Overtrowing the elected president and replacing him with dicators who would cause the death of over 100k people in the next 40 years. Another example of americans putting business interests ahead of the populace of that nation.

Laos 1957-Read the book killing hope. The CIA carries out approximately one coup per year trying to nullify Laos’ democratic elections. The problem is the Pathet Lao, a leftist group with enough popular support to be a member of any coalition government. In the late 50s, the CIA even creates an "Armee Clandestine" of Asian mercenaries to attack the Pathet Lao. After the CIA’s army suffers numerous defeats, the U.S. starts bombing, dropping more bombs on Laos than all the U.S. bombs dropped in World War II. A quarter of all Laotians will eventually become refugees, many living in caves.

Haiti 1959- Assisting Papa Doc to rise to prominace in the country over 100k innocents killed during the Duvaliers reign. Not once protesting the human rights abuses.

Dominican Republic 1963-The CIA overthrows the democratically elected Juan Bosch in a military coup. The CIA installs a repressive, right-wing junta.

Brazil 1964 — A CIA-backed military coup overthrows the democratically elected government of Joao Goulart. The junta that replaces it will, in the next two decades, become one of the most bloodthirsty in history. General Castelo Branco will create Latin America’s first death squads, or bands of secret police who hunt down "communists" for torture, interrogation and murder. Often these "communists" are no more than Branco’s political opponents. Later it is revealed that the CIA trains the death squads.

Indonesia 1965- Overthrows Sukarno, his succesor would murder somewhere between 500k and 1 million civilians because they were "communists" many on the lists were provided by the CIA.

Dominican Republic 1965 — A popular rebellion breaks out, promising to reinstall Juan Bosch as the country’s elected leader. The revolution is crushed when U.S. Marines land to uphold the military regime by force. The CIA directs everything behind the scenes.

The Ramparts affair.

Greece 1967— A CIA-backed military coup overthrows the government two days before the elections. The favorite to win was George Papandreous, the liberal candidate. During the next six years, the "reign of the colonels" — backed by the CIA — will usher in the widespread use of torture and murder against political opponents. When a Greek ambassador objects to President Johnson about U.S. plans for Cypress, Johnson tells him: "Fuck your parliament and your constitution."
Another example of why they hate us.

Operation PHEONIX - death of over 20k "Viet Cong"

Urugay 1969- http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Uruguay_KH.html

Bolivia 1971 — After half a decade of CIA-inspired political turmoil, a CIA-backed military coup overthrows the leftist President Juan Torres. In the next two years, dictator Hugo Banzer will have over 2,000 political opponents arrested without trial, then tortured, raped and executed.

Chile 1973 - Overthrows and executes Salvado Allenede the democratically elected president of the nation. Places General Augusto Pinochet in his place which leads to the death of thousands of people.

Angola 1975 — Henry Kissinger launches a CIA-backed war in Angola. Contrary to Kissinger’s assertions, Angola is a country of little strategic importance and not seriously threatened by communism. The CIA backs the brutal leader of UNITAS, Jonas Savimbi. Congress will cut off funds in 1976 but the CIA is able to run the war off the books until 1984 when funding is legalized again. This entirely pointless war kills over 300,000 Angolans.

El Salvador 1980 — The Archbishop of San Salvador, Oscar Romero, pleads with President Carter "Christian to Christian" to stop aiding the military government slaughtering his people. Carter refuses. Shortly afterwards, right-wing leader Roberto D’Aubuisson has Romero shot through the heart while saying Mass. The country soon dissolves into civil war, with the peasants in the hills fighting against the military government. The CIA and U.S. Armed Forces supply the government with overwhelming military and intelligence superiority. CIA-trained death squads roam the countryside, committing atrocities like that of El Mazote in 1982, where they massacre between 700 and 1000 men, women and children. By 1992, some 63,000 Salvadorans will be killed.

Iraq 1980- Hussein invaded Iran in 1980. During this costly eight-year war, the CIA built up Hussein’s forces with sophisticated arms, intelligence, training and financial backing. This cemented Hussein’s power at home, allowing him to crush the many internal rebellions that erupted from time to time, sometimes with poison gas. It also gave him all the military might he needed to conduct further adventurism — in Kuwait, for example.


This only stretches back a few decades. I wont even include the Phillipenes, are the Spanish American War.


"Do you understand the enormity and impact of telling the interanational community to go fuck themselves and that its our way are no way?"

This one is funny. Our country went to the UN and explained the failure of the resolutions for which "there would be severe consequences." Then formed a coalition (NOT alone) and did the UN's dirty work for them. I do understand the enormity and impact of what we did...and I am glad that we did it.

Yes if we didn't act the non existent weapons would kill us all.

You sit there and pretty much tell Bush to go fuck himself but want to appease the rest of world. BUT the STUPID Americans out voted you, so there you have it...if it becomes unbearable, there are plenty of options, are'nt there? You can go to Canada and enjoy their wonderful health care plan that is failing miserably...or you can go to France and get taxed to death.

I have some options if it get really bad and I will leave it at that. But this is my country and I'm a more loyal citizen then those who pretend that everything we do is for the good of the world. Its a citizens duty to question their goverment not just accept everything they say.

"Where are the WMDS then, and I don't want to hear anymore fairy tales. How the hell did you get Isolationist from that statement. I guess I'll draw a picture for you. They had no booms and no swushs to get them here."

You said that they did not have the means to get them to our shores...implying so then why would we care? Where are the WMDs..maybe they are in the Mosques, where fairy tales are taught? We can go on and on...prove this, prove that...but what DO we know? That he had them and used them in the recent past (not 50 years ago). Draw all the pictures you like, pal, but they were there and were moved...I have no proof, you are correct, but common sense prevails.

If that is an example of common sense then you sir need to return to school. The country was disarmed after the gulf it was found that he had no weapons and no capabilites to produce those weapons. So common sense would dictate that if we destroyed the weapons 13 years ago and he has had no chance are capabilites to create anymore then they must not exist. Damn that was a tough concept.

"Actually it was people of your ilk that were against becoming involved in that war prior to DEC 7." Completely wrong...I was not alive and times have changed...we STUPID people have LEARNED from our history. If we had attacked the Japanese fleet BEFORE it launched the attack, the Japs would have claimed an unprevoked attack, and people of your ilk would have been spreading their anti-American BS, just like you are today.

More pictures are needed. It has always been an american belief that are needs are more important then the worlds. Thats why when the Germans were invading countries in Europe, soldiers swimming in the English Channel, and Britain holding on by their finger tips we did nothing to support the free people of the world. Not until we were attacked did we become involved in that war.

Your last phrase was so ridiclous I won't even respond to it.

"The only time he got the Majority was last election, In case you don't remeber he lost the popular vote the first time." Thanks for pointing that out...he did not get the majority BEFORE his actions in the middle east, but DID afterwards. That speaks for itself...I know, I know, we are stupid, right?

He got the majority through a well run campaign not his actions in the middle east.

"I was refering to his actions the morning of 9/11 you remeber sitting there like a dear in the head lights."

I would rather have a president that takes a few seconds (that is all it was...you liberals act like it was a month or so...AND he was in front a bunch of kids...what did you want him to do, jump up and down and scream 'Oh My GOD!!!') and then takes care of business than a president that bombs a few buildings, says a few stern words and then moves on like nothing happened (President Clinton). Liberals grabbing at straws...that is all that issue is about.

Actually it was seven minutes. I would have liked him to stop reading childrens books and actually begin to take care of business.

Your comment about the former Bush...he is criticized for stopping short of Baghdad...the Bushes cannot win with you liberals....and what happened 100 years ago? Booms? Are you IN the third grade?

I was criticizing him for that. I was talking about when Sadam used WMDs on his people and Bush didn't even bat an eye.

"I do support are troops the difference is I refuse to accept the party line that this was a war that had to be fought. All that are troops ask is that we don't send them into a war without cause. I'am doing my part to ensure they return safely and as quickly as possible. They are there because people wouldn't ask questions of this president to produce proof."

I am tired of repeating myself. Most people believed he had them...Clinton, Kerry, etc. included. You are doing your part? You are doing your part to denigrate our men and women in uniform. It is just a shame that you do not see that.

Yes I'am belittleing their character because I ask questions. Sad that this is the direction our country has headed oh well you will reap what you sow.

As for most people believing he had them yes I know it doesn't change the fact that they were ALL WRONG.

[Mad Co Citizen]

The CIA should be reading this so that they can find out who you are...what is YOUR proof of all of your listed items. People like you are all over the internet...probably the worst is on www.serendipity.li - they claim that 9-11 was an American government operation also. Do you believe these kooks too?
I have been to Greece and Uruguay...and I was treated well (I did not speak either language). As a matter of fact, I made some friends in both countries.

You are wrong on the Iran-Iraq war...the Germans supplied the explosives and chemicals, the French supplied the Mirage fighters and the Russians supplied small arms and ammo...that was when Hussein actually took power, anyway...AND, the Mirage fighters were the ones used on the Stark...I do not hear you criticizing the French.

"the international community did that during the Gulf War" BS. The first Bush screwed up by not finishing the job...Saddam got lucky that the sentiment in the USA was to come home and not go into Baghdad. Then why did Saddam put up road blocks to the UN inspectors and when he did let them in, lead them around like geese? That information came from the inspectors themselves. Why did he defy the UN if he had nothing to hide? Fairy Tale.

What are your beliefs that you feel so strongly against religion?

What is YOUR proof that we supported Iraq using WMDs? That is complette BS and you know it. You have nothing but your conspiracy CIA theories. You have shown your true colors and they are NOT red, white nor blue.

Killing infadels with car bombs, haphazardly placed roadside bombs and artillery with NO regard to where they are aimed is terrorism to me...they are trying to scare the locals into being against the LIBERATORS.

"Yes I'm sure that the family of those killed really care about the intent of the one who pulled the trigger. I'm sure the families of the 100k iraqis killed in this conflict care that the Americans weren't as bad as Huessien.
That is where the difference lies."

Is that why they voted? The Iraqis could have sent a message by NOT voting. That would have been the BEST thing that they could do if they hated what the US has done for them. Right? Does that not make sense to you?

"Yes I'am belittleing their character" - We finally agree on something.

Everyone is wrong but you, I guess. So you admit that even the Left said he had them and was a threat, right?

[Mad Co Citizen]

I say: Those who desire Liberty and don't worry about safety are about to lose their liberty because they are incapable of providing safety from evil.

[hog]

I say: Those who desire Liberty and don't worry about safety are about to lose their liberty because they are incapable of providing safety from evil.
i like that quote.......very true and very good

[TaskForce]

Abu Graib? in reality, probably not as depraved as a weekend in the Kennedy Compound.



So, you're justifying what happened there?


CBS has shown that the main stream media, while never being impartial, has devoted itself to one cause. They deserve to be tanking as they are.

So, while CBS seems to be emerging as anti-Bush, Fox News Channel emerged, got a loudspeaker and went apeshit. Can we saw Republican mouthpeice?

[No Fear]

From Churchill, 9/11, Iraq, Vietnam, women getting beaten, romans, religion, whole bunch of countries,DNA, Bush, Kennedy,Kerry, Clinton, FOX New , CBS, and on and on. Christ welcome to the discovery channel featuring Chia and Mad Co. You guys are starting to get pretty fucking boring. Face it you guys agree to disagree. So pm each other and lets us enjoy what this is all about instead Hannity and Combs wannabees. Hows that TF.

PS Chia, are you sure your not Michael Moore looking to get stuff for a new movie

[Chia6004]

Mad Co got a wittle mad didn't he. Oh the truth hurts doesn't it.

Oh noes I pointed out some very bad things that are govt has done but it can't possibly be true because I refuse to accept it oh noes.

Hey moron how about you actually do your research and read history. Those are facts the CIA and this govt has done many bad things.

The CIA should be reading this so that they can find out who you are...what is YOUR proof of all of your listed items. People like you are all over the internet...probably the worst is on www.serendipity.li - they claim that 9-11 was an American government operation also. Do you believe these kooks too?
I have been to Greece and Uruguay...and I was treated well (I did not speak either language). As a matter of fact, I made some friends in both countries.

LMFAO I can give you articles, documents, books, eyewitness acounts and reports from ex CIA operatives for ALL of those examples I listed. The "proof" is there if you care to do you the research. But who am I kidding someone like you do research lol.

I'm sure you did meet some really great people there. There are great people in every nation around the world however anti american sentime