Quint Concept

[HotAsHell]

I am looking for information on the pros and cons of the "Quint Concept". Any feedback is welcome and if anyone has any websites are articles they could share too that would be great! Thanks.

[Forrest]

Could you give a little context to this? Are you looking to go total quint like St. Louis, looking to consolidate companies, enhance one's already in place or something different? What size aerials do you need? What type of staffing will be used for it? Anything special to consider?

My department operates a Quint in a small city. We're fairly busy and see a decent bit of fire. I'd be happy to share some info if I know more of what you're looking to find out.

[mohican]

If you are a vollie dept that doesn't have an ariell device, or an insufficient ariell device, then you're whole dept will like a quint

A quint is a ariell truck with pump and tank and carrying ground ladders, plus a few other things

for a vollie or small department that perhaps can only roll several trucks, a quint gives you the ability to roll your ladder truck, and have a pump and water also. Many "traditional" ladders or platforms won't have a water tank and sometimes not even a pump. And then you get into the whole discussion of truck companies versus engine companies, and if you roll a quint, who does what, yadda, yadda. And for "traditional" ladder companies, that is probably a legitimate issue. A legitimate issue is that full time departments use quints as an excuse to cut man power. They figure that if you have a truck with "everything" , then you don't need to staff as many people for first due.

On a vollie department, especially a rural vollie department where you need to be able to operate every piece of equipment, and everyone may have to run everything at some point, a quint can make sense, just like a properly set up rescue engine will be better for a lot of departments than a single purpose rescue.

the biggest negatives, in my opinion, from my view of the world, is that a quint is by nature a "compromise" machine. Because of the ladder, you might not have the room/weight capacity on the truck for as much water as you are used to on an engine. Where a standard "engine" may have 750 gallons of water, a quint will have 300 gallons. Quints also bring more training issues than a ladder only or an engine. You have more equipment on board, if you have a quint, people should know how to run everything. The biggest complaint of people who get quints is people who get them & actually like them is on single rear axles, and then find themselves underbraked, or with accelerated brake wear.

For me, if someone were to wave a wand and get us enough cash to get something other than our old 40 ft reach bucket truck, then a quint would make sense. (beware of sticker shock)

Also, from my skewed view of the world, if I got a quint, I'd want to equip it from the factory with CAFS, to stretch my limited water. (there's another 30-40 thousand dollars :D :rolleyes: )

[HotAsHell]

Thanks for the feedback.... and I welcome more.

What about the "total quint concept"? And what about using the quint in a city of paid firefighter's with high rise buildings?

Is total quint a good concept or more a way to be able to cut manpower?

How much does a quint cost in comparison to other engine's and trucks? What about the cost of repairs?

How does it manuver when it comes to small one way streets with cars parked on the side? Smaller or easier to drive?

[Forrest]

Thanks for the feedback.... and I welcome more.

What about the "total quint concept"? And what about using the quint in a city of paid firefighter's with high rise buildings?

Is total quint a good concept or more a way to be able to cut manpower?

How much does a quint cost in comparison to other engine's and trucks? What about the cost of repairs?

How does it manuver when it comes to small one way streets with cars parked on the side? Smaller or easier to drive?

I'm still not sure what to tell you on some of these questions since you really haven't answered my original questions about what type of setting your looking at. As for the new questions:

How tall are the high rise buildings? If they are taller than the reach of a 100' ladder/tower, then the Quint issue is moot from the aerial side of things. If the buildings are shorter, then you need to look at how big of a ladder do you need in relation to how you intend to operate the Quint and the size of your streets.

The cost of a Quint is generally more than a regular Engine and less than or even more than a regular Truck depending on how big you go. My department has an E-One HP75 Sidestacker Quint which runs close to $500,000. I'm not sure about the cost of repairs. We've had it a little over 3 years now and haven't encountered too much outside of PM.

As for manuverability, our wheelbase is 210" and it fits just about everywhere in our city which has lots of tight streets. Our Engines have a shorter wheelbase and obviously fit better into certain places better, but overall we don't have a problem. There are some tight spots that we could get into if we had a fire there, but we won't go into otherwise.

PFD3501 brings up some good points to consider and a few I disagree with or look differently at. Quints are a "compromise", but if designed and used properly they can be awesome. Additionally, they are not for everybody.

Most discussions I've encountered with people who have problems with Quints are the result of problems with the design, SOPs, their people, etc. rather than that the vehicle is set up for both engine & truck work.

Our Quint is on a single axle. We have 500 gallons of water, which is a common tank size for Engines. Weight was a concern. Our Quint has an aluminum body and aerial which saved lots of pounds. The sidestacker option allows us to easily lay and pack our 5" hose. Sure we don't have highside compartments on the one side, but there's still a ton of room on the vehicle.

Well, I could ramble on for a while, but I won't. If you can clarify some of those earlier questions, I'll be happy to help where I can.

[Grumpyoldman]

If you're a career dept, don't get within 100 miles of one. They are eventually used as manpower cutters redardless of what the city mgt. might say.

[HotAsHell]

Sorry if I do not answer all the questions very well... I am just learning what all the lingo means.

I it is a paid fire department, tallest building around 35 floors, not so wide streets and turn area. They are slowly converting over to the "total quint concept". And I have heard rumors of cutting manpower due to the budget.

So ... as I said, I am a beginner and need lots of info on the subject. Why would manpower be an issue when it comes to quints? Is it only because the quint is suppose to be able to do the same things two other trucks could do? Do you think in some situations this starts to compromise the safety of the FF's?

[Forrest]

Manpower can be a complex issue particularly if you're in the process of "change". The purpose (as I understand it) of the Quint in the TQC is the ability to function as either an engine or a truck, not (necessarily) both. Given that, you're likely to find deployment of single company stations rather than seeing the more traditional 2 company stations (eng & trk).

The effect on FF safety is hard to truely quantify. For example, say you have a 9 station department - 9 Engines and 3 Trucks each with 4 per/unit. This gives you 48 FFs. Your normal SFD response is 3 E, 1 T - 16 FFs.

Now compare this to the same department but using TQC. You still have 9 stations, but now you have 9 Quints each with 4 FFs. This gives you 36 FFs. Your normal SFD response is still 3 E, 1 T - 16FFs, except all vehicles are Quints.

What's the effect on FF safety? You still have 16 FF responding to the SFD. The primary difference for that incident is that the 4th due unit is responding from further away than one of the units from the first example because 2 units likely responded from the same station. Did that extra couple of minutes significantly effect FF safety? Most likely not, but there may be times it does. But is this really that different than a unit responding on a "fill" for a company already out on a call?

The larger effect is on the back end. In this example the TQC department loses 12 on-duty FFs. That will possibly effect FF safety if you start to see simultaneous fires or a multi-alarm fire.

I personally don't like to see quints used as a way to eliminate companies, but if there's no way to avoid losing those positions, Quints may allow you more operational flexibility or even the ability to keep a station open. Just something to think about.

[mohican]

Most discussions I've encountered with people who have problems with Quints are the result of problems with the design, SOPs, their people, etc. rather than that the vehicle is set up for both engine & truck work.



This is about as concise as you can get

[SIXand17]

TO BUY (OR NOT TO BUY) A QUINT
BY JAKE RIXNER

Many fire departments across the country are exploring the possibility of purchasing a quint. These five-function vehicles offer progressive fire service leaders new options on their arrival at the scene of a working fire.

As with any radical new concept, "working the bugs out" to optimize performance takes time, commitment, and training by all parties involved. This article examines my actual experiences trying to achieve these goals. (Note: Switching to quints is a major decision. Thoroughly study the issue from various perspectives, especially how it will "fit" your department and affect firefighter safety and performance. See "The Pros and Cons of Quints" for some factors that should be considered.)

It has been home to Phillip Morris and several other large tobacco companies for many years. In addition, south Richmond was the site of many acres of tobacco warehouses. The process of producing cigarettes is an inherent fire hazard, since tobacco must be stored to dry and is processed and transported to manufacturing machines through ductwork. Tobacco dust is a highly explosive by-product of producing cigarettes. One result of the dangers faced by this industry is that we have a superior municipal water distribution system. These large warehouses require large fire flows.

In 1971, the Richmond Fire Bureau (RFB) consisted of 25 two-piece engine companies, nine senior aerial ladder companies, and two tactical squad companies. Each was staffed with an officer and five firefighters. The last ISO rating for the RFB, in the early 1970s, was Class II Fire Bureau. By 1982, the RFB consisted of 20 engines, nine trucks, and one squad. Seven of the engine companies were two-piece; 13 were single-piece. The daily minimum staffing was 150 firefighters on duty.

Fiscal difficulties throughout the next 13 years led to the department's being whittled down to 20 engines, all one-piece, and six trucks, with no tactical squads. In 1996, newly appointed Fire Chief Jack McElfish, faced with more fiscal constrictions, proposed a "total quint concept." The plan called for 20 quint companies, eliminating all truck companies, and creating three new heavy rescue companies.

Taking the department from 26 companies down to 23 companies caused a reduction of 50 firefighters, with a minimum citywide staffing of 100 firefighters per day-a 33 percent reduction in just 13 years. A contract was awarded for the following:


Four quints with 105-foot aerial ladders with 300-gallon booster tanks;
14 quints with 75-foot aerial ladders with 500-gallon booster tanks; and
one 100-foot platform, commonly know as a tower, that carries 200 gallons of water.

In addition, we purchased nine Class B 500-gpm pumpers on commercial chassis with the intentions of deploying these units to the companies with the most EMS runs.

A draft was compiled:


First-due units would function as an engine company.
Second-due units would do truck work.
The heavy rescue was responsible for search and rescue.
Third-due units would perform engine operations.
Fourth-due units would function as the second truck.
Fifth-due units would perform engine operations.

CHRISTMAS IN MARCH

I was a lieutenant at Engine 6 when our quint was delivered. Enthusiasm was high when we were sent to the training division and turned over on our new quint with just four hours of instruction. We were all excited to receive a new piece of equipment. I was concerned about the brevity of the training. My platoon consisted of three firefighters and one vacant position. The two senior firefighters each had nine years of service, all in an engine company. The junior firefighter had seven years on the job. He had only a couple of years of service in a truck company. I had served eight years in an engine company before being promoted to lieutenant and was assigned to a busy truck company for six years before coming to Engine Company 6. Two months later, we were assigned a rookie to fill the vacancy. We should have recognized the lack of ladder company experience as an indication of the challenges ahead. Many officers voiced these concerns to the administration through channels. Other company commanders found themselves with the opposite problem: firefighters who had spent entire careers in ladder companies but had never been to pump school and didn't know how to pump. Once again, concerns sent through the chain of command fell on deaf ears.

THE INJURIES BEGIN

It wasn't long after all of the companies had received the quints that uncommon things started to become common. The supply hose was located in a bed under the aerial ladder. To lay out the hose required that it pass under the turntable through a chute approximately eight feet long. While laying hose, couplings would jam or catch before entering the chute, resulting in the four-inch supply hose's being dragged up the street behind the apparatus. If the hose was wrapped around the hydrant, the hydrant was pulled from the ground like a weed.

Another dangerous situation occurred when the hose was pulled tight. It would break and snap like a whip. It was only by the grace of God that no citizens were injured or killed. The same can't be said of the firefighters. One firefighter was struck in the leg while taking a hydrant. It was six months before he regained feeling in his leg. Another firefighter sustained a nearly fatal basil skull fracture while taking a hydrant. He was flung 12 feet into the air and landed on his head when the hose pulled taught and broke at the coupling. The hose itself traveled more than 100 feet and wrapped itself violently around a large tree. There were many other near misses before the problem was solved.

SLOW RIDE

Have you ever traveled by bus? Do you remember how slow the trip was? Responding to a fire in a quint is a lot like riding a bus. Yes, you will arrive but maybe a little late. I have six successful rescues from burning buildings in my career, and I can state with certainty that four of those people didn't have 15 seconds left to spare. I have been to other jobs where other firefighters made rescues with no time to spare. Time is the essential ingredient in rescue.

Minor accidents are common with quints; it seems that we are constantly making contact with other objects that result in bent metal. Even our most careful chauffeurs have had problems. The B-platoon at # 6 was the last shift to wrinkle the quint. We had just cleared from a run; the driver was cutting the wheel hard to avoid a parked auto when the rear end of the apparatus swung out into moving traffic, causing a collision. Interestingly enough, most of our collisions with the quints are returning from alarms not responding.

LONELY DUTY

Prior to the quint concept, half of the Richmond fire stations were double stations-an engine and a truck. Now, only three double stations remain. It's very lonely working in a building designed for 12 firefighters when only four are working. Ancillary duties such as cleaning the fire station are carried out with half of the personnel. Other duties, such as building inspections and hydrant maintenance, are performed by fewer people.

Because there are fewer firefighters working in each fire station, we must empty more stations to have 16 firefighters at a dwelling fire or a minimum of 25 at a target hazard. The result is large areas of the city are left unprotected during the incident. A fire in an apartment building in the Fulton Hill neighborhood in the pre-quint days would empty three stations. Today, the same response would require emptying five stations. This strips downtown and the entire east end of the city of fire protection and commits 25 percent of the on-duty suppression forces.

HISTORY LESSONS

An old adage that rings true is "Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it." Our grandfathers worked with 75-foot aerial ladders and 500-gpm pumpers and found both deficient. Now 50 years later, we have forgotten history and are rediscovering lessons learned long ago.

I was the first-in officer at a fire in a four-story type III 50- 2 200-foot nursing facility of type III construction. The fire was on the third floor; people were trapped in the building because of the heavy smoke. I had six quint companies, a heavy rescue, and a battalion chief, all of whom would be on-scene in a few minutes. I had the ball for the moment. I radioed to the next-arriving engine to take the standpipe system. Then I realized that it was responding with its 500-gpm pumper, not the exact card you want to play in this hand. We put a quick knock on the fire and vented the building. No lives were lost, but any fireground commander will tell you added distractions are unneeded and extremely stressful at a critical life-and-death incident.

SIZE MATTERS

The booster tank size is reduced on quint apparatus because of weight and space considerations. I remember returning from a full first-alarm assignment one evening. As we were returning to quarters, communications sent #5 to a vehicle fire on I-95. As we approached our own quarters, we were sent to assist #5. I was puzzled. I've never been special called to an automobile fire before. When we got there, officer #5 told me he had used up his 200 gallons of water. We had only 300 more gallons to add. As we stood on the side of the interstate, the irony hit me: We had well over a million dollars worth of equipment and two aerial ladders on this call, but we didn't have enough water to extinguish a simple automobile fire. That's progress?

LADDER COMPANY DUTIES

I surveyed 10 fire departments that have used quints. All reported a lack of truck company functions at working fires. In Firefighting Principles & Practices, Second Edition (Fire Engineering, 1991), William E. Clark states that the common difference between paid and volunteer fire departments is the quality of the ladder company functions performed. I have experienced the lack of truck work at fires since the implementation of the quints. It is common to respond to fires in Richmond as the assigned truck company and to be ordered to take a hydrant and stretch a hoseline. Truck work truly suffers.

I understand that most government bodies have limited amounts of money for public services and that the tighter money gets, the more innovative we must become. Although quint-type apparatus are innovative, I'm not convinced they are for everyone. What looks great on paper doesn't always work in the real world. The challenges I've related in this article are a day-to-day source of frustration for the front-line forces in Richmond, Virginia. Like most firefighters, we are can-do people and are trying our utmost to make the best of what we have.

Before you buy into this new concept, study your response area carefully. Ask yourself these questions: Is this type of apparatus a good fit for my needs? Are the roads wide enough and bridges strong enough to accommodate these apparatus? Are we willing to commit to extensive training so all our people will be qualified in both ladder work and pumping skills?

Finally, we must never forget that it is the people riding the apparatus who stretch the hose, make the rescues, and knock down fires. Our quints are big and beautiful with lots of chrome, flashing lights, and other gadgetry. However, if given a choice between modern fire trucks with mediocre firefighters and that "plain-Jane" 1976 Mack pumper with motivated and dedicated firefighters like we had at Engine 5, I'll take the old Mack every trip of the train.

Is there a way to achieve the discipline necessary to accomplish effective ladder company duties using this type of apparatus? If anyone out there has the answer, please share it with us all.

This article is strictly the opinion of the author and in no way reflects the position of the Richmond (VA) Fire and Emergency Services Department.

The Pros and Cons of Quints

ADVANTAGES

It looks good on paper. An increase in pump capacity can be shown, as has been done in Richmond, Virginia, and St. Louis, Missouri, when the departments purchased fleets of quints with 2,000-gpm pumps.
Reduction of staffing = saving money. By staffing each quint with four persons, the staffing of separate truck companies is effectively eliminated. This results in large savings of personnel salaries.
Increase in the number of aerial ladders available. Every piece of apparatus now is equipped with a "big stick."
Apparatus able to perform engine or truck tasks. The quint offers the flexibility to perform as an engine or a truck, as needed.
An all-new fleet. If a department chooses to use an "all-quint fleet," it will acquire an entire new fleet of firefighting apparatus at one time.
Four-door cabs with air-conditioning. This is an advantage over older apparatus, since the firefighters are safely enclosed in the vehicle. Rehabilitation time during hot weather is greatly reduced because of air-conditioning.
Ability to make immediate ladder rescues above the third floor. Having an aerial ladder on each piece of apparatus makes it possible to make quicker rescues above the third floor, since no time is wasted waiting for other companies to arrive.
Superior ladder pipe. The ladder pipe on the quint is prepositioned and is instantly ready for use. It also can sweep a 180° area, as opposed to older-style ladder nozzles, which can only sweep 30°.

DISADVANTAGES


Difficult to maneuver. The apparatus is large, is heavy, and can be difficult to maneuver in traffic. It is more difficult to turn the quint into narrow streets than a pumper. There has been a marked increase in the number of vehicle-involved accidents compared with the times when more traditional apparatus were used.

Increased maintenance and fuel costs. Many separate systems-the water pump, motor and drivetrain, aerial ladder hydraulic system, and electric generator, for example-are placed close together. Mechanics often have to remove these items to access the component in need of repair. This is time consuming and, consequently, costly.

Also, the quints have shown a reduced brake service life and increased tire wear. All 10 tires on Quint 6 needed to be replaced after just 10,000 miles.

Increased response time. Reduced maneuverability has increased response time. Firefighters have found that they have to dismount at short intersections and back up the apparatus, which significantly increases response time.

Also, because the average quint weighs more than a pumper, it is more likely to encounter bridge weight restrictions in the response district, which results in a longer response time.

Increase in unprotected areas during emergencies. The reduction in staffing means that more companies are needed on the first alarm (to have sufficient personnel at the scene). This results in more areas being left unprotected.
Perfect positioning needed. The 75-foot ladder has come up short when perfect positioning at the fire scene is not possible.
All-at-once purchase poses risks. Purchasing an entire fleet at one time is risky because one specification error or miscalculation can result in the entire fleet's becoming problematic for the next 15 to 20 years.
Insufficient personnel for engine and truck functions. It is impossible with a staff of only four firefighters to effectively do both engine company functions and truck company work with the same crew.
Fire station renovations may be needed. Old fire stations may have to be renovated to accommodate the quint. The quint's weight may necessitate changes in the floor support design, and the station's door size may have to be modified to accommodate the quint's height.
Ineffective ladder company function. Many departments that use quints report that ladder company functions are not being performed effectively. Therefore, for normal ladder company functions to be performed in a timely manner, strict operating procedures must be enforced.
Insufficient space for ground ladders. The quint, since it is to perform as an engine and a truck, does not have enough space to carry the equivalent footage of ground ladders as senior tractor-drawn ladders.
Smaller booster tank. The quint's booster tank size might be much smaller than a conventional triple combination pumper.

JAKE RIXNER, a 22-year veteran of the fire service, is a company officer for the Richmond (VA) Department of Fire and Emergency Services, an instructor with Virginia Fire Programs, and a volunteer firefighter with the Kentland Fire Department in Prince George's County, Maryland.

Fire Engineering April, 2001
Author(s) : Jake Rixner

[Caddy Miller]

Jake,

You need to get back on your train. You have way to much time on your hands! You still selling Seagrave?

[Hook&Kanman]

Down here in Richmond,VA the city uses the quint concept i am not to sure on the details but from what i have heard the system work pretty damn good here and the concept proved itself damn well during the VCU fire biggest fire in the citys history

[regs1]

Jake- One of the better articles about quints I have read lately-

Hook&Kanman – you have to be kidding me, quints I believe are being replaced due to their problems, already replaced in St. Louis home of the quint concept.

HotAsHell – the first question in using this type of apparatus you are trying to accomplish. If you are trying to cut manpower, the use this type of apparatus to replace two units, it will never work, you loose either necessary truck work, or engine operations. Most of the problems seen is that one unit operated as a truck company and engine company at the same time. If two companies had a combine manpower of 9 people, [4 engine 5 truck] quint unit now has 7 people, now you have to decide what jobs will be delayed, and what jobs will not be done.

If you already have staffing shortages, the problem will only become worse.

[SIXand17]

I ran across Jake’s article from Fire Engineering while doing research on the subject. A search of his name on some of the other major fire service websites will yield other articles he’s written.

Whether or not you agree with his take on the Quint Concept, he definitely points out issues that should be considered, which is why I posted it.

BTW – the last time I saw him, he was wheeling around DCFD E15 from Seagrave of Richmond prior to it being delivered.

[HotAsHell]

Six&17... do you have any other research on the topic you can share with me?

[Forrest]

HotAsHell – the first question in using this type of apparatus you are trying to accomplish. If you are trying to cut manpower, the use this type of apparatus to replace two units, it will never work, you loose either necessary truck work, or engine operations. Most of the problems seen is that one unit operated as a truck company and engine company at the same time. If two companies had a combine manpower of 9 people, [4 engine 5 truck] quint unit now has 7 people, now you have to decide what jobs will be delayed, and what jobs will not be done.

If you already have staffing shortages, the problem will only become worse.
I agree that the first question is what are you trying to accomplish. However, I disagree with your position of "it will never work". Sure a reduction from 9 to 7 means less work gets done as quickly, but who's going to see 7 person staffing in the first place? As for deciding what get's done, i'd say the same way you decided before - most critical tasks first.

Assuming we're still talking TQC, from what I've come to understand of it, you're still getting the same number of people to the fire, they're just arriving differently. The first unit is usually acting as an engine, one of the others is assigned as the truck. The rest assigned as needed. This doesn't make the staffing problem worse if the same number of people are still coming to the fire.

If you're having problems with jobs not getting done, I'd contend that it isn't because you are using Quints. I'd say it's more likely you are having a personnel problem, either lack of discipline by the FFs to do what their assigned job is and/or lack of leadership to make sure they are doing what is needed or that they are supposed to be doing.

[AC302]

Having been involved in three departments with quints, let me say this A QUINT IS A TOOL just like any other tool we have available to us. The fact that it can be an engine or a truck is both an asset and a liability. Good SOP's and some common sense must prevail or a quint will do nothing well. What seems to work best is a truck that can lay its own supply line and pump its own water. After that its up to you, for example first due initial ops might call for it to be an engine. However operator training is extremely important here if its the only truck available. Proper engine placement will pretty much wipe out its effectiveness as an aerial device. Consideration needs to be given to its dual role capability and the possibility of a switch from offensive to defensive operations.In a department with more than one quint, the first due is typically an engine and will commit as such. Another drawback is that as a quint you sacrifice hose space, ground ladder space and compartment space. Again needs evaluation is the key. For a smaller department that needs aerial capability occassionally, the quint can be very effective. I could go on, but these are my major points and just my two cents.

[Engine4Member]

In 1971, the Richmond Fire Bureau (RFB) consisted of 25 two-piece engine companies, nine senior aerial ladder companies, and two tactical squad companies. Each was staffed with an officer and five firefighters. The last ISO rating for the RFB, in the early 1970s, was Class II Fire Bureau. By 1982, the RFB consisted of 20 engines, nine trucks, and one squad. Seven of the engine companies were two-piece; 13 were single-piece. The daily minimum staffing was 150 firefighters on duty.


:)

Just a comment on this statement in his story.

I have a lot of information on a lot of departments, East of the Mississippi. While he stated that in 1971 Richmond had 25 two piece engine companies, this is not correct.

The only time that Richmond had two piece engine companies was during late 1800's amd early 1900's, the steamer days and all steamers companies had a steamer and a hose wagon.

During the later years when the steamers were replaced and as late as 1960, Richmond had only 12 or 13 two piece engine companies, 1 - 21. The others were single piece or triple combinations. In 1971, 1 year after the city took land from a county to the south, they added 4 engine (Triples) and 2 aerial companies. So, they never did have 25 two piece companies. That just isn't true.

In 1975, they only had 7 two peice and 14 single piece. Four engine companies had been disbanded. One of the engine companies name had been changed to a Squad company, Both Squad companies ran pumpers.

In fact, in late 1947 and early 1948, Richmond did have 19 out of 21 engine companies.

While I am not for or againt Quints, they are of some value. Unless your truck companies have pumps that can help supply the aerial, then you need to get pumpers to try to lay out short hose lines to keep the friction loss down when pumping to ladder pipes. I am use to supplying two aerial pipes, the 1000 GPM pipe attached to the bed section and a fly pipe usually 600 GPM to the end of the fly. This using two different pumpers pumping into the lines to the ladder pipe.

;) :D

[tekrsq]

First, let me say: Anything that does everything, does NOTHING well.

While I agree that quints have their place in just about any dept, the total quint concept is the biggest bunch of bull shit that was ever pushed across a desk. The primary purpose of quints in a career dept is cut manpower...period. It doesn't matter how many pretty bows and promises you wrap a terd in, in the end it's still just a pile of shit.

As for operational issues:

(1) does not carry enough eqipment to be a good engine OR aerial....let alone both.

(2) does not hold up to daily driving in an URBAN area. The stop and go traffic, poor city street conditions, etc totally destoy the rigs.

(3) size. If the streets are narrow, you play hell maneuving it around.

(4) pumping large volumes of water (ie the Broad St fire). Yes it was nice to have 6-8 ladder pipes in operation, but how do you think they were supplied water? With ANOTHER quint parked at a hydrant. How do you justify parking a $750,000 piece of appartus on a hydrant when you could have just as easily parked a $300,000 engine on the hydrant? How the hell is that saving the taxpayers money? Especially now that the "answer to all our prayers quint" is out of service parked on a hydrant and unable to save the rest of the city.

Jake's article is DEAD ON. Sorry if I sound bitter, but I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO tired of people thinking quints are the answer to all the world's problems. The only "problem" they are an answer too, is an administrator's way to cut your dept. If they want to cut manpower, then maybe they should stop sending the fire depts on EVERY damn call that comes through the dispatch center. Let the PD do something besides not solve homicides, and over run the Krispy Creme. You would have thought after 911 these fuck-head idiots would've learned something, but I guess their egos won't allow it.

Good Luck to you!!!!!!!

[AC302]

First, let me say: Anything that does everything, does NOTHING well.

While I agree that quints have their place in just about any dept, the total quint concept is the biggest bunch of bull shit that was ever pushed across a desk. The primary purpose of quints in a career dept is cut manpower...period. It doesn't matter how many pretty bows and promises you wrap a terd in, in the end it's still just a pile of shit.


Jake's article is DEAD ON. Sorry if I sound bitter, but I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO tired of people thinking quints are the answer to all the world's problems. The only "problem" they are an answer too, is an administrator's way to cut your dept. If they want to cut manpower, then maybe they should stop sending the fire depts on EVERY damn call that comes through the dispatch center. Let the PD do something besides not solve homicides, and over run the Krispy Creme. You would have thought after 911 these fuck-head idiots would've learned something, but I guess their egos won't allow it.

Good Luck to you!!!!!!!

You bring up some good points. I can't help but get the feeling that there is something else to this forum. Most of you keep harping on the reducing manpower theme. My question is this: How many of you who are career firefighters have actually fallen victim to the "quint mentality" of reducing department strength?

[tekrsq]

I know of atleast 2 others (besides myself) that have posted on this thread that are part of a "total quint concept" career dept. If they wish to ID themselves, that's up to them. We lost 6 truck companies when suitcase Jack brought his circus of quints to Richmond.

[AC302]

I know of atleast 2 others (besides myself) that have posted on this thread that are part of a "total quint concept" career dept. If they wish to ID themselves, that's up to them. We lost 6 truck companies when suitcase Jack brought his circus of quints to Richmond.
Now I know why you guys are so bitter. Perfect example of all the WRONG reasons to go to quints. My sympathies are with you and your fellow firefighters.

[Fat92boy2001]

Here is my 2 cents worth about the Quint concept. This vehicle can be called a Qumper, Quingene, or any other nickname that you feel applicable because it is combining 2 jobs and doing them poorly. I am not saying the personnel is doing anything wrong by any means, I am just saying you can't be proficient in both tactical arena's. The departments that have this quint concept have been faced with many challenges after purchasing these all encompasing vehicles. I have numerous example but this one really sticks out: It is 4:30 AM and a Box is struck for an apartment fire. 1st due "engine" is a quint along with 2 other engines and 1 ambo, the quint pulls up to a 2 story apartment with people on the roof, a burn victim on the ground and 3 people inside the burning apartment on the second floor. The next engine in was no less than 1 minute away and the second right behind them. How would you play out this scenario? It played out like this. The 4 man quint sat on the hydrant because they don't have enough tank water to accomplish an interior attack, the next in engine throws ladders to the roof and fire apartment and initiates the VES while the 3rd engine secures a secondary water supply while the crew conducts a search of the other units. The truck should have the fire building with an engine on a hydrant not the other way around. A truck crew is required to bring the "A" Game when it comes to moments like this, not worry about getting hose off and water to the pump, lives depend on it. Now I know people will say if you put out the fire a majority of the problem goes away but in this case the victims didn't have the time to waste. Companies need to be proficient at what they do so others don't pay for costly mistakes.

Also, look at maintenance-Chase a couple of ambulance runs and see how well they hold up. The same department I am talking about along with 2 others that bought the sisters of this rig have either parked them or run them as straight trucks now because of the repair costs, anything from cracked leaf springs to accidents.

I hope this helps and good luck.

[Forrest]

Maybe I'm missing something about this incident, but from what's posted here I'd have to say that the problem lies with the personnel and/or SOPs and not the fact that a Quint was on the assignment rather than a dedicated truck company.

You state the first alarm consisted of only a Quint, 2 Engines and an Ambulance. The Quint arrived with an Engine following by 1 minute. With no other "Truck company" assigned I don't understand why this Quint would sit on the hydrant instead of going straight in and setting up for Truck Ops and letting that Engine pick up the hydrant? To me this sounds like the Quint officer made a bad decision or was obligated to follow a bad SOP requiring them to do what they did solely based on the fact that they where the first arriving unit.

You ask "How would (I) play out this scenario?" My department (6 FFs on-duty with 1 E and 1 Q) would have our Quint go straight in and more than likely position on side 1 (not knowing the actual layout). The operator in conjuction with our Deputy Chief would throw the main ladder to the roof (assuming we don't have overhead obstructions) to initiate the roof top rescue. Meanwhile, the two other FFs from the Quint would pull an attack line and advance on the fire. Our Engine would be arriving within a minute or so, if not arriving at the same time and lay a 5" supply line to the Quint. The attack crew would be doing a "hasty" search as they advanced their line for victims in their path of travel. The Engine crew would then enter to conduct a more thorough search. Upon the arrival of our off-duty crews (within a couple minutes for the first to arrive) they would be assigned as needed at that point. Sure this isn't optimal or ideal, but it's what we have to work with for now. We see our share of fire and most of our's are out or under control by the time the off-duty guys show up.

I'm in no way saying that everybody should have Quints or that TQC is better than seperate Engines and Trucks. I just think that many of the problems being encountered (that I'm aware of) are being focused on the wrong area. Bad SOPS, apparatus designs, decision making, training and personnel attitudes cause far more problems than the fact that a vehicle can operate as an engine and/or truck. I don't dispute the wear & tear or increased operating costs, but our Quint is way more than adequate as an Engine and does just fine with the Truck Ops that we need.

[mohican]

Part of these post have me curious

One would have to assume that many of the busier urban departments have their ariels out on a daily basis. How are these holding up?

I can understand that a quint, with more much more weight than an engine will have more wear and tear, but are the manufacturers pushing the envelope so much that a quint is marginal for daily driving? Or could it be that the same beancounters that spec quints to save manpower also marginilize the specs?

[regs1]

I work in a dept that has 14 tractor trailer ladders, and one mid mount tower, two rear mount ladders the city has used this type of apparatus for the past 75 years, on average depending upon manufacture they hold up for around 8-10 yrs before going into reserve status. The city tried one E-1 quint, replace and engine, it lasted 6 years before reserve, 2 years there, then sold.

Trucks company run on average from 500 to 3000 runs per year.
City is located a East mid Atlantic Area.


I hope this helps

[mohican]

I carry a Leatherman everyday

I use it every day

it works well for me

It has a clip point knife blade, a saw, a serrated sheeps foot blade, one phillips screwdriver, three straight bladed screwdrivers

There are times when I use other knives or tools, but I would not say that because it is a do it all tool, it does nothing well, because it does many things well.

But from some of the things I see here about quint use, the analogy I think of is not of a better tool, but the wrong tool. As in trying to cut a rope with the phillips screwdriver and wondering why it didn't work.

In areas where they have the staffing, and financing, the seperate traditional engine and ladder trucks works very well. I think it is when you have a person doing one thing for a large portion of a career (truckwork), and then has to work on a quint because of downsizing (a reality, justified or not) then it is as said in large part a problem to to training, experience. If it's your first out, then as with any engine or truck at least a quick sizeup should be done prior to committing to it's placement.

Seeing this as a negative of quints I have to scratch my head "I have numerous example but this one really sticks out: It is 4:30 AM and a Box is struck for an apartment fire. 1st due "engine" is a quint along with 2 other engines and 1 ambo, the quint pulls up to a 2 story apartment with people on the roof, a burn victim on the ground and 3 people inside the burning apartment on the second floor. The next engine in was no less than 1 minute away and the second right behind them. How would you play out this scenario? It played out like this. The 4 man quint sat on the hydrant because they don't have enough tank water to accomplish an interior attack, the next in engine throws ladders to the roof and fire apartment and initiates the VES while the 3rd engine secures a secondary water supply while the crew conducts a search of the other units. The truck should have the fire building with an engine on a hydrant not the other way around. A truck crew is required to bring the "A" Game when it comes to moments like this, not worry about getting hose off and water to the pump, lives depend on it. Now I know people will say if you put out the fire a majority of the problem goes away but in this case the victims didn't have the time to waste. Companies need to be proficient at what they do so others don't pay for costly mistakes.


What does this truck have, 300 gallons? 500 gallons in the tank?
Knowing that your engine is 1 minute behind, why not set the truck appropriately - if you need it set as an ariel, set it as an ariel. If you need it set as an engine (pumper in my neck of the woods :D ) then set it thus. tying it to the hydrant because of limited tank capacity shouldn't be an indictment of the truck.

if the quint has a 500 gallon booster tank, then you should have a minute or two with the your preconnects. If you're putting people inside right away you of course want to make sure the water is arriving...

This could be played out a number of ways

[Monkey's Pop]

Do you guys think that a quint (or maybe 2) would work in 2 volley depts. who run most of their calls together? There is no truck coming on the first alarm (it is a special request for us). Most of the buildings we have are no more than 3 storys (appts.) although some are set back a good distance from the road.

[Forrest]

I'll be happy to help as best as I can. I'm a little familiar with your area (Baldwin right?) so we may be able to talk in specifics rather than generalization on this.

PM me with some of your initial questions and we'll see what we can do.

[regs1]

I try to answer the best I can, in my travels, I have seen the quint concept work in various volunteer departments, In one dept. all apparatus are quints [3]. When one is dispatch, it dedicated either to do truck operations, or engine operations.
In doing so, you can easily adapt to the changing needs that volunteers system needs.

Forrest: you once mention staffing, each engine to place one line in service needs a minimum of 3 F/F, one officer [also backs up nozzle person], the line person, the pump operator.

Truck- if mid or rear mount 1 driver can also be used for ladder work. 2 people to raise a 30’ or 35’ ladder,
One forcible entry [iron, bar man] one hook person, one officer, that is a 5 person truck, let take away the hook person who also is the vent person in many departments, that leaves a 4 person truck.

Total under minimum staffing 7

Quint operation combined – lets say 5 people, what job gets done, getting a line in service? Raise a ladder for rescue, 2nd exit point? Forcible entry – as you can see the problems are now starting to show up.

We have even approached the 2 in 2 out rules.

[somefireguy]

We placed a quint in service alittle more than a years ago. A little backround on us we are a rural dept. running a quint 500g, squad 500g, and engine tanker 1500g. On first due calls the quint is first out the door followed by the engine tanker. Our main reason for the quint is that our next due truck in 5 plus min away. We can run the quint as an engine and let the next due truck use our piece. Positioning is not always easy in our area. The truck may wind up burried in the pack where it serves no one if the stick is needed. At least with our quint first in our driver can assist their crew getting everything set up.

Recently ran a house fire where that happened. The quint followed by the engine tanker pulled into a driveway. Quint crew pulled the attack lines and got a good knock before they were needing more water. Another engine crew wound up acting as truck crew and using equipment from our unit.

I will admit sometimes they have their place other times no. For us it seems to be working fine. I guess it's all how you are set up. We also have trained alot with surrounding companies on it so they are familiar with it.
Just my opinions

[Monkey's Pop]

do you think a manufacturer would cut a break if 2 companys placed an order for 2 quints together as opposed to buying them seperately?

[Slider]

Talk to Richmond, VA about Quints. They operate on a Total Quint Concept (all Quints). They odered them all at approximately the same time.

[mohican]

A loose consensus would be that a quint would be better for volunteer and "less busy" full time departments than for a busy urban area.

This is of course provided that SOGs/SOPs and training are in place so that people can operate the quint in it's various modes, and know how to compensate for a quint's trade-offs.

[mohican]

not really related to the total quint concept, but is anyone familiar with the Metz line of ariels and quints?

[ashfire]

Well here in Prince George's County MD. There is one quint in the whole county. It looks just like any of the other 100 ft ladder trucks that the county bought except for the pump panel. It has moved from the Oxon Hill VFD station to the Tuxedo station which is a all career station which has a engine, quint, heavy squad, comunication bus, dive unit w/ boat and bls ambulance. The purpose the county bought it was that if the unit was on the air and a call came in for the station to dispatch the engine or the truck it would not have to go back to exchange units and take up time doing it. It seems to work out being the only unit of its kind except for a smaller unit just up the road from it which is refered to as a Tele-a-squirt which has a 65 ft ladder and belongs to a volunteer station.
The county is a combination system of career and volunteer personnel bordering Washington DC. Most stations belong to or operated by the volunteer organizations with career personnel working during the day or 24 hours with volunteers mixing in during or after or taking over after day time work hours or are all volunteer 24 hours . Three stations are fully operated by all career. A carreer crew could be 4 or more during the day (Officer and Vehicle Tech and two fighters) and 2 at night depending on the station. Some stations have more personnel depending on the apparatus. The paramedic units, haz mat support units and some special units are career units There are 44 stations in the county. Three stations which were volunteer organizations have been combinded into one building because of the distances from each other. The building was built by the county and few other stations have been built to replace or add stations. More stations in the future maybe combinded or relocated or added because of distance or building age or changes in the system, populace or population growth.