Size Up

[Phantom]

How much structure is involved in this fire?

[Creeping Death]

By the fire in sector 1 and heavy smoke in sector 3, I'd say at the very least the 1st floor.

[towaladda124]

Well judging from the amount of fire, and the smoke that appears to be showing from all 4 sides, ecspecially the rear, very good amount, dark, and apparently under some pressure, I'd say that the first floor is well off and quite possibly the 2nd floor and/or the attic. Looks good take a duce and a half in and GET SOME!

[Beef14]

Obviously we know one room as already flashed, and judging by the darkening of the smoke on side C, it is already off and will more than likely flash in the near future. Also, by the lighter smoke showing from the garage area, without doing a 360 I would judge that to be residual smoke from the fire in the adjacent rooms. But dont get me wrong, they would not go untouched or unchecked. Plus, with the horozontal fire spread and lack of ventilation from the seed of the fire, it has more than likely hopped into the attic/2nd floor. Take it in through the front door and eat the heat.

[1st in,last out]

2 1/2,that's a joke right. 1 1/2 that's all you need to get that.hold 1+1 (balls to the wall,either your in or your out)

[T1Side1]

id say from the picture that it looks like the fire is venting pretty good from that window...once its found its vent source, its much harder to spread through the whole house...id say a few rooms were off...
ya never know though...from the other pics that were posted along with it on firehouse.com it appears they went exterior...a good 360 would tell us much more...

[T1Side1]

Originally posted by 1st in,last out
2 1/2,that's a joke right. 1 1/2 that's all you need to get that.hold 1+1 (balls to the wall,either your in or your out)

AMEN. inch and a half could get it.

[Tool Fool]

Lay out 1 1/2 from the hydrant, hit it with both booster lines, and oh yea SCBA's for the new guys......

[BigDave]

I would say room and contents.

The house looks small enough that there's minimal separation of the front and back rooms by a wall or doorway. The black smoke venting from the back to me would suggest to me that the back of the house isn't actually burning yet (but close) and some smoke around the eave between side 1 & side 2 says flames are creeping into the upstairs.

Since we use 1 3/4, I would pull 2. One in the front door, attack the fire. Pull a second line as a back-up in case things go to crap in a hurry and definately send someone to the attic or second floor.

[ofd226]

Appears to be a room and contents with possible extention to the actual structure. One 1 3/4 with a 15/16 tip should knock that in about 2 minutes. As long as the truck vents the roof quick, the attic will probably be extending the fire along the length of the house. Easy, bread and butter job that should be handled easily by the first engine and truck.

[Phantom]

I thought room and contents when I first saw it, then I started thinking.


I think its probably most of the first floor and the extent of the fire is being masked by good construction and thermopane windows.

[11927]

1 1/2 or 1 3/4 thru the front door, another as a back up.

[S.E.SOLDIER]

1 1/2 THRU THE FRONT

[2EngTrk3]

I'm coming in from the rear. second line from the front door or garage. This ones a self venter. in from the rear and knock'er down. get the knockdown then search for ext.

[allpro]

2EngTrk3,

If you use that tactic, you will have opposing hose lines. That could get some one killed. You never take a line through the garage.

BigDave's idea sounds the best.

[Truck Monkey]

Looks to be a room & contents or possibly multiple rooms due to the smoke in the back. Take an inch and three quarter right through the front door, push it out the windows. Have the next in engine run the backup line off of thier engine, so in case something goes to shit on your engine, you've still got a charged line ready to protect the interior guys.

[2EngTrk3]

I didn't explain everything, second line was only backup. initial attack was rear line.

[allpro]

Why would you take your initial attack line to the rear when you don't know the progress of the fire? Now if you know for a fact all of the fire is in the front of the house, then MAYBE. I'm not a big fan of taking attack lines through a rear entrance on SFD.

[DCFD/WVFD]

I have done that before take a line through the rear because it seemed as though the fire was just in the front of the house, and I can tell you I will never do it again It didnt work as well as i thought and the next line came through the front door it was bad Ill never do that again. It was one of those things were you learn from your mistakes.

[T_Gunderson]

Ok what I see is a Single Family Dwelling with a possible limited second floor at best.

It looks like you have fire involvement on the Division 1 (Side A with Extension and Involvement to the entire Division). As I look at the Structure I vision a "Vestibule" between the Garage and the living quarters. I would think that this would then come into the middle of the living quaters maybe between the kitchen and living room?

If its in Ridgely we are taking 1 3/4 trough the Front Door, Second Line Follows the 1st to the Second Floor/attic area. Third Line for RIT. Truck to the Roof for Vertical Ventilation to prevent the possibility of a Remote flashover in the 2nd floor/attic. Don't forget Primary Search. Car in Driveway and with the Type of car and the type of house I would be looking for a older person or person's.

Second line takes hooks in to pull the ceiling if no access is present to the attic. Also might need the attic ladder.

I don't think this is a fire that calls for a 2 1/2 and I would hold with the first alarm assignment. Looks like it would be a good fire to have the nozzle on.... :D

[allpro]

T_Gunderson;

I'm with you up to the part about the truck going to the roof. It's a single family dwelling; have your truck split into two(2) teams. Team #1 searches the imidiate fire area; then upstairs to continue searching, vent, pull walls and ceiling for extension. Team #2 exterior vent, ladders, utilities.


It's a lot faster and more efficent to pull the walls and ceiling to cut off extension.

[MAC200]

With the fire in the window and roof line, would'nt an attack from the outside into the window be a good start. that way you could beat back the flames for the next attack from the front door and also in the picture the roof line is burning, which would meen the soffit is buning and flames would have penetrated into the attic. you can see smoke at the lower corner of the gable end.
During this attack other teams can start search, internal attacks and ventilation.

prime1

[CAPNCRNCH]

Prime, are you a new guy or am I not understanding you? You want to spray water through the window while crews are inside searching? If someone did that to me, I would give them a wood shampoo with an ax handle.

[MAC200]

Not while people are inside this would put them in danger. I meant this as a first attack to beat back the fire before the interior attack begins.

[CAPNCRNCH]

I reread your post, and see that I did misunderstand, but I am still not a fan of spraying water into a window unless there is no chance of getting inside,

[MAC200]

I appreciate your input. I was just throwing that out there from what i could see of the house. what do you think would be a better approch. I am trying to learn more about comand and size up. I usually get off the truck and follow orders and don't get the time to asses. thats why I like this site it gives me a chance to learn more. so any suggestions would be appreciated.

prime1

[Pumpmonk]

Hey Fellas - great discussion - we need more like this on here! OK, I'm voting room and contents, maybe multiple rooms, or soon to be, by the picture. This is a great illustration of why the pumper boss has to do a walk-around. With a well-trained crew, they're ready to attack when he comes back from his size-up. On this one, I'm going in the front door with a 1 3/4, with backup line at the front door. Got a third line handy? Take it into the garage to protect that exposure. Depending on how much time has elapsed, my truckies are gonna split ops, (Manpower dependant) and are going to open the roof above the fire room and do the secondary search/overhaul.

[WhiteRabbit]

Originally posted by prime1
With the fire in the window and roof line, would'nt an attack from the outside into the window be a good start. that way you could beat back the flames for the next attack from the front door and also in the picture the roof line is burning, which would meen the soffit is buning and flames would have penetrated into the attic. you can see smoke at the lower corner of the gable end.
During this attack other teams can start search, internal attacks and ventilation.

prime1

I'm not a fan of this tactic becuase in a situation where the fire is only in one room you run the risk of pushing the fire into other parts of the house. If it were me making the decisions, first engine takes 1 3/4 to the seat of the fire, 2nd engine pulls a back up line, first special searches, vents, and opens up, 2nd special is the RIC.

Take this with a grain of salt, I'm pretty new...

[MAC200]

ok my first thought was not popular. So how is this (2) 1 3/4 lines thru the front door. first one to the fire the second to access attic. have rescue team do a search. have a stand by crew with hose ready for rapid intervention.
I still belive that one line outside on the roof line is neded due to the flames in the soffit. maybe a booster line.
After flames are controled and search is conducted move on to salvage overhaul and ventilation.


prime1

[allpro]

pumpmonk;

I don't think you really want to take a line in the garage. After the fire is out, maybe for hot spots.

[CAPNCRNCH]

I agree with an 1 3/4" through the front door, another as a backup, knock a hole in the ceiling as you first go in to make sure the fire isnt overhead, get to the seat and have someone pulling the ceiling for you, it is already well vented, hit it with 175 g.p.m. and you will make quick work of this one.

[neb]

sounds like a good idea

[Federal_Q]

I agree. Through the front door. Fire seems to be on one side of the house. You'll find out fast when you pop the front door.

[aardvark]

Don't do a F...ing thing without doing a quick outside size up !!! At LEAST 3 sides !!!

Then again...it's only a picture, and I'll firefight it from my desk, just like the rest of yooz guys.

[gfours]

I agree with with arrdvark. I lost a good friend because the I/C didn't do a 360 and the crews attacked and the basement was well off and the floor collapsed after only five feet into the dwelling. Do the 360.

[BobR]

This has been on a few days. What was the answer?

[Smell My Coat !]

From only the picture, at the very least two rooms and the attic. Well seated fire venting good. Two 1.75" lines (attack/backup) a hook and this fire is history !

[Smell My Coat !]

You know, I just looked at this thing again. It would be very difficult to correctly size up this fire without seeing the whole thing from all sides. There is no way anybody could because only the guys that worked this fire know what the house looks like. What does the back look like ? Does the yard drop off ? Was the back of the house blown apart by a gas explosion ? Is it two story ? By looking at the picture yes, but how do you really know just by looking at the picture.

Besides a very limited amount of information about the house strictly from this picture, what about the area and the resources of the fire department? Is this area supplied by hydrants ? Or does the fire department have to rely on tankers ? And from the time this picture was taken, what is the response time of the first engine and where is the water supply ? What is the staffing of the first due engine ? Is it in a rural setting where the staffing maybe 2 because it is an older rig without jumpseats ? Or in an urban setting and the engine has 4 or 6 guys ? And what about water supply ? Before you start pulling 1.75" and 2" preconnects from your rig, you'd better make sure you have enough water to keep them stiff ! Does this area have hydrants or is the fire department dependant on tankers ?

Also, from the time this picture was taken, what is the response time of the first due engine ? Or is this picture what they have upon arrival ? And back to what I said before, if this area is dependant on hydrants, how long after the first engine arrives will the water be behind it ? Will it be another pumper or a tanker ? What size are their booster tanks ?

Unless this is supposed to be for fun, there is just no way to correctly size up this fire simply from a photo. There is just too much missing information. I'm not trying to be an asshole or anything, so don't anybody get pissed at me.

This is one of the most constructive threads I've seen in a while.
Good One !!

[MG3610]

I agree, theres alot you cant tell from this picture, but my vote goes for 1st floor fire, exposed the soffits into the roof space and fire spread up the interior stairwell. This looks like a "cape cod" type house, maybe modified a bit. The stairs are probably in the center of the house. There are most likely knee walls on the 2nd floor, allowing fire to build up in those voids. I would think the best approach is side A with at least 2 lines, one for the 1st floor one to the 2nd floor and some good agressive opening up. Venting the roof..maybe..but quick interior truck work and some good hose crews would probably take care of this one. I'm not sure of that whole attack from the back theory just because theres visible fire in the front, it will only delay getting water to the fire.

[Micksman]

21/2 pre connect to start. Give it the big blow to knock it down, then break the line down and go in. The old timer's rule: Big fire, big line, little fire,little line. Keeps you from "overthing" the problem too soon and delaying immediate action.

[MG3610]

Why waste time and effort dragging a deuce when you can blow just about the same water flow with a 1 3/4 or 2 " line???

[esfmmk]

Looks like their is a small vent pipe in the roof on the left side. Bathroom vent? If their is a bathroom on side 2 first floor with a small window (not broken yet) that would explain no smoke from side 2, Heavy smoke from side 3 (kitchen area) 2 1/2 w/ 1 1/8 is not totally out of the question. Heavy fire probible extention 1 3/4 to the attic space thru a scuttle. Quick 1st due engine work and truck work will make for a quick fire. A slow attack and you'll be here a while.

Don't knock the 2 1/2 proper training and the right group of fella's and they can be placed and monuvered very quickly and efficently. I like using the 2 1/2 idea alot coming from a vol dept. Our engine may be the only engine for a while and if the first line does not have enough water you don't want to delay truck work for a second line.

Put the fire out and you take the hazard away.

[lt90303]

your best bet would to be go thru the gatrage with a 2 1/2line because the back of the buliing is off if you look at the smoke comming out the back . I recently took a class with reading smoke by dave dodson and it is a great class

[allpro]

You can't tell by that smoke if the back of the house is off. Take your line(1-3/4 or 2) through the front door and put it out. Aggressive interior attack!

[emtmatt06]

Id say 1 room involved exposures to other adjacent rooms . Fire is well vented through the front window, come in the rear of the structure for a primary search and with 1 or two 2 1/2 and push the fire out towards the window not pushing it through the rest of the house. id also ladder the roof incase additonal ventilation is needed. Have a rit team on standby and there is a car in the drive way, could be possible entrapment.

[sunflower]

I'm coming in from the rear. second line from the front door or garage. This ones a self venter. in from the rear and knock'er down. get the knockdown then search for ext.
Why?? You are making a simple op. harder than it needs to be. Take a 1" 3/4 with a smooth bore 7/8 or 15/16 right in th front and knock the hell out of it. You know, direct attack? And before you start giving me this "go in from the unburned side crap" save it. Dirctly attack the fire, it WILL go out and if you have a good nozzleman you won't push nothin' nowhere. So, put the book down, draw on your experience, and put the fire out.
S.F.

[sunflower]

Why would you take your initial attack line to the rear when you don't know the progress of the fire? Now if you know for a fact all of the fire is in the front of the house, then MAYBE. I'm not a big fan of taking attack lines through a rear entrance on SFD.ONE MO' TIME: Especially if I know all the fire is in the front of the house, I'm taking a 1&3/4 smooth bore flowing 180 GPM right through the front door, make a DIRECT ATTACK, bingo, done. If you have a good nozzleman, you don't "blow the fire through the house". Sounds good in the books, but unless you are using a fog pattern on a direct attack( a HUGE NO NO ) you will be just fine my friend. The direct attack with a SB nozzle is the way to go for interior firefighting. I've done both many times, and through the learning method of steam burns, I have become a direct attack with SB/SS advocate. I've used it over and over again and never had a problem. Plus I don't take the beating I use to with the fog. Don't get me wrong, the fog pattern has its place in the fire service, just not for interior direct attack.
S.F.

[allpro]

"Why?? You are making a simple op. harder than it needs to be. Take a 1" 3/4 with a smooth bore 7/8 or 15/16 right in th front and knock the hell out of it. You know, direct attack? And before you start giving me this "go in from the unburned side crap" save it. Dirctly attack the fire, it WILL go out and if you have a good nozzleman you won't push nothin' nowhere. So, put the book down, draw on your experience, and put the fire out.
S.F."

I agree 100%.

[FFEMT242]

1 3/4" line through the back, attach from the unburnt side of house, assuming as I voted that it is just 1 room with smoke out the backside. Second line for a safety. Still want a little more info before endering.

Also, 1 1/2" & 1 3/4" line is commonly known as the same size throughout the US. Just what you wanna call it, along with 2 1/2" & 3". All the same couplings.

[emtbfireresq]

Unless I'm seeing this wrong, there appears to be fire on the D side of the structure. Look right above the car. If this is true then I would imagine the 1st floor is pretty much fully involved. Or, its running away from the fire room in the attic or crawl space. And since I see no visible flame on the rear of the structure and is hasn't popped the roof. Depending on where the back door is, I would run 1 3/4" through the rear and keep the fire pushed as much to the burned side as possible. Again, unknown w/o a 360 on the Bldg. Thats if there is fire on the D side like I think I see. If not, definately direct attack throught the front door and hit the fire. Lets not forget about search search search.

Lead....follow.....or get out of the way!!!!

[PissedOffOldGuy]

Just walk in thru the front door, turn left and put the fire out... If you get it quick enough, you might have it knocked and have your hose drained before the whacker Chief gets there and establishes the RIC. Better yet....knock it with the "Can"!

[WMFF29415]

Really looks multiple rooms.I see no fire thru the front door so its NOT the whole 1st floor.And fire HASNT reached roof yet, So hence NOT the 2nd floor.Also I c NO fire in garage or smoke. So deafently Multiple.

[WMFF29415]

Go thru opposite side, were there is no fire hit HER FROM THE BAK.

[MIDDLEFINGER]

Just walk in thru the front door, turn left and put the fire out... If you get it quick enough, you might have it knocked and have your hose drained before the whacker Chief gets there and establishes the RIC. Better yet....knock it with the "Can"!

I'm going with you on that one bro. :cool:

Can we all :rolleyes: agree the living room is off...........lol