Well, what's the all powerful local going to do? [Archive]

HoundDog

12-02-2005, 01:37 PM

Not just CBD but the entire region! There are a proposed 39 positions being "consolidated" = "eliminated".

Cross manning crash units at Pax, ALS at IH to a BLS, BLS at USNA to ALS. The way I read it - some of the "recommendations" are contradictory to one another. Read the whole thing about the Tower at Pax. Is it essential or not? Do they man it or not? Seems like they want to make everything a quint like it was done to Hawaii, which happens to be where the inspector used to be the Fire Chief. Not sure but seems like retribution for what Killen did to him!

I believe that contradictory statements and the taking the inspection in context should void the entire document.

FEDUP

12-02-2005, 04:25 PM

for someone sooo anti union,, you sure are worried about what the union is doing. It doesn't matter what the union is going to do you will have no say or vote in any of it. PLease don't tell me that you are not dumb enough to think that it would be a smart strategic move to announce anything. Quit being a scab troll and stirring crap!

Outsider

12-02-2005, 04:56 PM

It doesn't matter what the union is going to do you will have no say or vote in any of it.

F'd UP - You mean the local has to vote on trying to help "Your BROTHER's" keep their jobs, well you better tell them to get off the pot and call for a meeting, so you can vote to help them.

As for me, I'm writing Hoyer, Sarbanes and Mulkulski to see what can be done.

From what I've heard, it's more than your local is doing, and I know it's more than the iaff is doing

FireFactory

12-03-2005, 01:27 PM

F'd UP - You mean the local has to vote on trying to help "Your BROTHER's" keep their jobs, well you better tell them to get off the pot and call for a meeting, so you can vote to help them.

As for me, I'm writing Hoyer, Sarbanes and Mulkulski to see what can be done.

From what I've heard, it's more than your local is doing, and I know it's more than the iaff is doing

Your going to contact the above individuals? Man, I hope you communicate in writing with them better than you do on this site. With you voicing your opinion theyll think we are a bunch of fucktards and assclowns!!

crash_&_smash

12-03-2005, 01:28 PM

Hound Dog, Outsider, FEDUP,

As someone who went through all of this "reorganization" from CNI down here in the Southeast region I can tell you what "they" are going to do.

#1 ADM Weaver from CNI and ADM Brown from Commander Navy Region SouthEast told us if two different face to face meeting that cross manning is and has been authorized and that they accept full responsibility if something should happen due to cross manning (i.e. two emergencies at the same time causing a delay in response.

#2 Our Union (AFGE) was either unable or unwilling to do anything. Our manning was cut from 56 to 43. I also contacted people from the IAFF looking for help….some helped, but for the most part it was limited. If I remember right, the total number lost in the southeast region alone was close to 60 positions.

#3 Look for more cuts to come next year

I hate to say I told you so, but if you look under the General Federal Firefighting threads you’ll see various thread started there passing info and looking for help.

Outsider

12-03-2005, 03:58 PM

crash & smash - You have just helped to reinforce the point I'm trying to make here. A union, no matter what union, in the Federal Fire Service, is a waste of the Members money.

The local/union can do nothing to help it's membership with the important things that will or might effect there jobs and pay.

And when it comes to a safety issue, they have the NIOSH Safety Office, MOSHA, or OSHA to get the problem fixed or abated.

But when it comes to there union/local squandering there hard earn money on PAC Organizations or FirePac. They sure know how to do that the right way.

chief2

12-03-2005, 06:28 PM

Its going to be interesting if the International does anything at all, I have been following this since it started. I was one of the original signers of the IAFF charter for NDW. The International was always interested in getting their funds, when the gas crunch of the 70's came around the local went to the International and asked for help in getting the Federal Firefighters exempt from the odd and even days due to our work hours, we got told in no certain terms that the was something the International would not get involved in and to handle the matter on a local level only.

crash_&_smash

12-04-2005, 12:19 AM

crash & smash - You have just helped to reinforce the point I'm trying to make here. A union, no matter what union, in the Federal Fire Service, is a waste of the Members money.
I've been following your discussion and for the most part I've agreed with you, but since I'm not in the MD / VA area I've decided to not post.
Its going to be interesting if the International does anything at all, I have been following this since it started.
I wouldn't expect them to do anything either....I've seen first hand how the Union helped. I ended up trying to fight the battle on my own, and in the process management was/is steamed with some of the point blank questions I asked ADM Weaver....My career has pretty much ended here which is why I'm looking to get out of here. The bitch of it is that my job was never on the line....I fought for the newer guys that were afraid to go against management.

Outsider

12-04-2005, 03:39 PM

Chief 2 you are an Ol' Timer - But you've made a valid point, the iaff is not going to get involved in anything, that we need help with in the Federal Fire Service.

If we want anything done, we as a group, not the iaff/local will have to do it. We don't need any union/local backing us, this is the 21st. Century, things have changed, unions are a thing of the past, they were needed once, but not anymore.

Even the powerful UAW can't save there members job's that GM and Ford are cutting, never could, never will, you know why, unions have now power anymore.

Sure they can call for a Strike, but it dosen't do anygood, all that does is hurt the poor worker/union member who is already living from payday to payday on his/her check.

Face it, if we want anything done, we as a body of Federal Employee's will have to do it on our own, because we won't get any help from anybody else.

FEDUP

12-04-2005, 07:03 PM

You know for some of the old timers that have been in for a while and seen things that have happend in the past. we all know that cuts happen, Smash how did you guys lose the positions? was there a RIF? did those positions go away over night? how did they do it? The cost of war is effecting a lot of places everywhere. days of old are long gone, The federal sector has grown over the years. earned more clout in the union. there are over 50k federal firefighters,about 5000 of them belong to the IAFF .The 16th district is soley for the Federal Firefighters. You say that anyone person could go and do the negotiating with. with out the union the ones that you wanted to try to change could tell you to pack sand and go do your job and shut up. Those days are the days that are long gone. Many administrations have gone by. Living in the days of the old will get you no where. are we forgetting the Moritorium on contracting out of firefighters? I guess the unions didn't have anything to do with that? The agencies are to busy fighting things that could make them more marketable than doing things to help. Uniforms, if some had thier way about it we would be walking around with a red rag in out back pocket being dressed like the local school custodians. I have seen the fire service change over the last 15 years. They sure have made leaps and bounds.Firefighters are the worst animals for change. they don't like it never have and im sure they never will. But Out sider for you to come out using your special way of trying to charm some one demanding this and demanding that demanding respect and calling people names. Your oppinions are noted and they are just that,, oppinons and the thing about it they are like assholes and armpits we all have them and some of them stink. For what you view as an injustice others see as not being an injustice. you say of the people you have heard things from you are relying on what you hear from someone else???????? where are your facts? hear say is nothing. you have no idea whats being done. Think that report that came out is the true report????? You need to rethink your resources. look at the whole picture not just at what you want to see or don't want to see.

Outsider

12-04-2005, 08:42 PM

F'd UP - I'm not tryin to charm anybody, but what I am trying to do, is open some of their eyes to the Bull this local is trying to push. I'm going to be a Thorne is your side for a long, long time, so get use to it.

Everytime you all screw up, I'm going to be here to poke you in the side, to let everybody know, what you have done or not done, that hurt's your Membership.

FEDUP

12-04-2005, 09:13 PM

I think the line of communications has been opend up quite wide to the members? if something is not gettin out and the members don't say something how can some one know? WHAT BULL are you talking about that this local is trying to push?????
Be specific. Condolences about the union brothers? ok thats done, what do you want an appology? it was brought to the union presidents attention and the measures to prevent it from happening again have been taken.
Next? I have seen your kind,, You have a percieved entitlement that the union should do everything for you. while you sit back and do nothing. they ask you for information and you say ohhh thats not my job or you dont' offer up what you know. in turn making it more difficult for the union to do the job its designed to do.
Im sure people have learned more and had more information put out since the mergers. I know i hear a lot more people talking about it. must be doing something right. talking is communication getting more feedback is another plus. I don't see you walking up and down the halls of congress banging on doors of the congressmen and women that you are writing your letters too. Putting family time on hold to do things for others. giving up your day off to make sure that information gets put out to the troops, goes to sleep late at nite working on a proposal. No i don't see you doing this at all..... the only thing i do see you doing is pointing out that some one missed something. some one did something wrong. (with out a solution to any of this) for the eyes that you are trying to open you are also trying to cloud them with your oppinions. cause you feel they have done you an injustice for what ever reason it may be.

Outsider

12-05-2005, 01:04 AM

F'd way UP - I'm glad it's been brought up to poore's attention on how you showed no compassion toward your locals "BROTHERS" and I hope it never happens again.

No I don't want the apology, but I think you should make an apology to your "BROTHERS" on their webpage and explain the reason an tell them it will never happen again.

But the main thing you or the local officials don't understand about me is this, I don't need you to do anything for me. I don't want you to do anything for me.

You can't do anything for anybody, the CNI Report shows that.

FEDUP

12-05-2005, 03:33 PM

here is a lil reading for what you say the IAFF hasn't done for FEDERAL firefighters
http://www.iaff.org/politics/us/content/images/GovAffs%20Files/fed%20presumptive%20FS.pdf
Federal FF Retirement Age S.271 Feinstein (D-CA) Introduced in Senate
H.R.93 Gallegly (R-CA) Passed House 1/30/01
Passed Senate 8/3/01
Enacted 8/20/01: P.L. 107-27
just a little for now if you need more i will post more

crash_&_smash

12-05-2005, 04:04 PM

Smash how did you guys lose the positions? was there a RIF? did those positions go away over night? how did they do it?

We were looking at a RIF, but the Navy decided to Civ Sub our Out Lying Field. They moved the excess personnel to that station. Now the guys up there are working M-F 72 hours per week (4 12 hour days and one 24 hour day). Personally, I think the schedule sucks, but the guys wanted to do it. We came up with many different ideas to save the positions and man the other station, but nothing became of it.
The positions went away as of 01 OCT 05. Command told the Chief to have 43 personnel on shift by then.
I know it'll sound like I'm blowing my own horn, but many of the guys here think that the jobs were save due to the letters and phone calls I made to our Congressman. It took Chip Pickering to get ADM Weaver down here, and once ADM Brown found out the boss was coming she high tailed it over here to find out want was going on.
Anyhow, the working hours, number of days per week worked, pretty much everything that changed was at the Chiefs discretion….the Union didn’t fight anything. There still isn’t a section of our contract that covers the OLF, with no talks going on about writing one.

Can you see why I want to get out of here? Anyone know of some job openings in VA?

Outsider

12-05-2005, 10:49 PM

F'd UP to the Max - That was done to change the Federal Employee Compensation Act (FECA), the iaff only supported HR 1101 or S 530, they didn't fight for it. There's a big difference in Support for, and Fight for.

The only people that fought for it were the 50,000 Federal Firefighter in the United States. They were the ones who really fought for HR 1101 and S 530, and probably all 50,000 Federal Firefighters wrote there Congressman/Woman or Senator Two or Three times and asked them to Vote for, and pass HR 1101 and S 530, and it did pass.

That's what I've been trying to say here, if we want something changed we have to change it, we have to do it, because nobody, the iaff, afge, I don't care who you name, no organization anywhere is going to help us do anything in the Federal Fire Service.

I saw more things done to help the Federal Firefighter when most of the Federal Firefighters belonged to the old FFA, but I'm not going to go there, because everyone knows what happened to the FFA.

crash_&_smash

12-09-2005, 04:41 PM

Now the guys up there are working M-F 72 hours per week (4 12 hour days and one 24 hour day.
Anyhow, the working hours, number of days per week worked, pretty much everything that changed was at the Chiefs discretion….the Union didn’t fight anything.
When Im mentioned the work hours, I should have made it clearer about the schedule.
The Air Boss decides the Airfield hours, thereby deciding the firefighters work hours. The Air Boss will make an airfield schedule two weeks in advance....so one week you may start work at 0630 and the next week at 1000....and then work 12 hours from that.
Kinda tough to have a life around hours like that.

Watch_Dog

12-10-2005, 04:41 PM

Well instead of worrying about Cable/Satellite T.V. and overcrowded bunkrooms, why don't you guy's try to flex your muscle's and do something about the sorry ass radio's here at NDW Central.

Or are you going to wait until someone get's hurt. Then play the, blame it on Management game, and go around saying "We told you so, we told you so".

TWR21TECHY

12-10-2005, 07:54 PM

If you think it is a problem what have you done? Did you bring it to anyones attention? Make a single phone call? Write an email or safety hazard report?
If the answer is NO then you now have an idea of where start.

See you on the tower!

Watch_Dog

12-11-2005, 03:10 PM

I've done all of the above, plus a whole lot more TWR21TECHY, and if you are who I think you are "M", you were sitting right next to me, complaining "Why isn't anybody else doing anything about this.

I, along with a lot of other people have tried to do something about this problem, our Shop Stewarts here in NDW Central know about this problem, because I have told them about it, have they done anything about it?.

TWR21TECHY

12-11-2005, 11:27 PM

Maybe I was there... What I am saying is did you ever bring this to the attention of someone with power to fix it or do something? Now that we have these new union guys did you ever tell them? Maybe they can address it.

Watch_Dog

12-12-2005, 02:53 PM

TWR21TECHY - Did you read my last post. I told our Shop Stewarts, don't you think, they would have enough "Common Sense" to contact somebody higher up in the Union.

HonestEngine

12-13-2005, 01:42 PM

How Baby :D

Loved the article in the Capital this weekend. You really told em. Too bad it was all about the Academy. What about poor old CBD. Those guys a getting hit the hardest. Oh my, must of slipped his mind.

I guess Outsider is right; Its all about the USNA the hell with the rest of us.

ug Baby :D

TWR21TECHY

12-13-2005, 08:48 PM

You guys, my buds, really embarass me! Now you think the UNION can tell a newspaper what to write?

I am sure the Independent is going to carry a story about NDW, right? Come on, the Capitol is an annapolis paper, you think capitol cares about anything but annapolis?

Come on brothers, at least they go something in the paper! When was the last time one of our stations made the paper?

See you on the Tower

Outsider

12-14-2005, 02:30 PM

It's always been an "I" local, never a "WE"

Outsider

12-16-2005, 02:42 PM

I see on your webpage, that it states, the "UDWC Requested a Summary Judgement From the Court", and "The lawsuit was filed by a coalition of labor unions, and that the iaff was included".

Well part of that statement is true, it was requested by the "UDWC", and was filed by a coalition of labor unions, but the iaff wasn't one of them.

I see where the "AFGE, NFFE, IFPTE and the TEAMSTERS" reps signed off on it, but I don't see anything pertaining to the iaff in the law suit.

No signatures of any iaff rep. on the filing document, not even any mention of suppoert by the the iaff in the suit.

Now tell me again, where is the dues of your members going, and what are they paying for.

Hey f-121 MEMBERS, Smells fishy to me.

Watch_Dog

12-20-2005, 12:53 PM

Hey Outsider,

I guess the truth hurts, nobody's trying to rebut what you wrote.

I also read the suit over with a fine tooth comb, and your right. The IAFF didn't even weigh in on it.

I think the other stuff their trying to push about them lobbying for money for NDW is a crock too. I spoke to someone with connections to OBM, and they said, their is no way, they can allot monies for one juristiction or the other, it's a big pie and everyone gets a small slice, and you get what you get, might be 1.5 Mil., might be 500K, nobody knows, might be nothing.

Chief46

12-20-2005, 04:05 PM

I just read a release on Steny's website (http://hoyer.house.gov/Newsroom/index.asp?ID=297&DocumentType=Press+Release). Are you saying Steny is committing a fraud by claiming to be instrumental in providing these funds?

Here are Steny's words from his website “So I was pleased to work with Bruce Poore, Joe Gronau, Leroy Wilkison and others from the union to secure these funds to provide Chief Stillwell with some flexibility to purchase new equipment, and I understand that two additional trucks have been purchased and will be stationed at Dahlgren and Bolling."

Interesting!

And I suppose you have never heard of earmarks? As in when a member of congress steers federal funding towards an issue the congressman has an interest in. Maybe I am watching the wrong nightly news shows because I hear similar things on the news shows fairly often.

Watch_Dog

12-21-2005, 02:47 AM

Chief46 - First of all, I didn't mention anybody's name, and be careful when you use the word fraud.

I also think that the money NDW just recieved was "earmarked" in FY2004, for FY2005, and we are just getting it. But then again I bet Federal Fire Departments all over the United States are recieving money also, right about now.

Like I said Chief46, it's a big pie, and everyone gets a small slice.

Chief46

12-21-2005, 06:03 AM

Just a little history to help clear any fog within your head. The FY05 Defense Appropriations was not approved and signed into law until Jan '05 for a budget year that began Oct 1, '04 thru Sept 30, '05.

The current defense appropriations that congress is working on is for a period of Oct 1, 05 to Sept 30, 06 and looks like it won't be signed until Jan.

The three engines (Indian Head, Dahlgren & Bolling) was all purchased in FY '05 with FY '05 money. And I am certain that Stillwell had the money long before we ever saw anything. After all, Eddie doesn't clear his apparatus purchases with anyone below, say, the rank of CHIEF.

The money currently being discussed for FY'06 - Eddie will get that shortly after final approval and signature by the President. And then you won't likely see any new engines for 6 months or so at best.

As for all fire departments getting money as you claim, the federal fire departments are not allowed by law to get any of the grant money being given away. Just look at the long lists of grant winners, I see city, town and county (career & volunteer) departments getting the money but NO federal departments! Why is that? Oh yeah, they don't qualify because of THE LAW!

I still believe the union has had a positive affect on this region's cash flow for engine purchases. And I also believe that no matter how hard Poore and Russell bust their ass for you (ndw firefighters & inspectors) and the union, you will still stand on the sidelines and BITCH.

It is easy to bitch when you are sitting in the stadium. Step out on the playing field and we will see who is bitching then.

PLAY BALL!