Attention! Please Read and Respond!!!!

[MVFD81]

Scenario:
You are a 17 yr old junior firefighter your company gets paged out to a working structure fire with victim entrapment. Your department is understaffed and you get to not only go to the call but enter the structure. Your job is to search the 2nd Division of the structure your department only has search teams of 1 member. You search your room and find nothing later to find that you missed a little kid who's life has now been taken. What would you do?

Please leave all rules and all personal department regulations out of your replies! i.e. 2 man search teams, juniors and structure fires!

This happened to my girlfriend today.....she quit the department.

This post is specifically for support!

Please reply!

Michael Fantauzzi

[hog]

like i posted in the other thread...the officers and the fire department should of never put her in that position

[Emtmom]

Scenario:
You are a 17 yr old junior firefighter your company gets paged out to a working structure fire with victim entrapment. Your department is understaffed and you get to not only go to the call but enter the structure. Your job is to search the 2nd Division of the structure your department only has search teams of 1 member. You search your room and find nothing later to find that you missed a little kid who's life has now been taken. What would you do?

Please leave all rules and all personal department regulations out of your replies! i.e. 2 man search teams, juniors and structure fires!

This happened to my girlfriend today.....she quit the department.

This post is specifically for support!

Please reply!

Michael Fantauzzi
First and foremost she needs to be reassured it is NOT her fault. BUT, whoever the OIC was could be in deep. If she is new she would not have the proper training to be in that situation. For that matter her parents could sue for the mental anquish this is causing her, not to mention the fact that she is under age and should not be in that building. If it was my kid, I'd make damn sure that officer was no longer an officer!

[EMT/FF99]

CISD can help majorly if intervention is now. Dont let something like this slip away & years later come back to haunt. Been there & dealing with PTSD now, not fun.First and foremost she needs to be reassured it is NOT her fault. BUT, whoever the OIC was could be in deep. If she is new she would not have the proper training to be in that situation. For that matter her parents could sue for the mental anquish this is causing her, not to mention the fact that she is under age and should not be in that building. If it was my kid, I'd make damn sure that officer was no longer an officer!

[flare]

Assuming this is an American dept, then she should not have been permitten to enter the structure despite manpower issues. This is a gross infration of child labor laws as well as all the standards that NFPA and OSHA could shove down one's throat...
That being said... she really does need to seek some therapy be it via CISD or whatever is available. She needs to understand that she was directed to do a job that she has presumably not been trained properly to do. The logical part of my brain says that she should have refused the order, knowing that it was wrong, but the rest of me knows that any one of us would have probably gone in if we were in her position. It's diffucult for anyone in an emergency situation, especially a teenager that does not have the experience needed to question such a situation, to defy an order. My heart goes out to her... and missing that child during the search is not something she should beat herself up over nor should it be the driving force in her leaving the department. I understand why she would feel this way, she is validated in feeling this way... but i also hope she gets the help she needs to overcome this.. it will not be a quick event to overcome, and she will need all the support she can get.
I wish her well

[Monkey's Pop]

The oic should have never put her in that position!!!! And to go in alone?? How long has she been with the dept? has she attended any training classes? Regardless if she has had any classes or not, No one should have ever put a junior inside on a search alone!!! I feel bad for her, hopefully she can work things out.

[NOZZLE]

I have to agree with everybody so far, she should not have been put in that situation. An experienced FF should not be put in that situation at if it can be helped at all, much less a junior FF, there should have lest been a FF with her.I wonder if the situation was such that they really needed to split the search crew? Was there two or more people searching? If so, could they have just stayed together and search areas one after the other instead of trying to search everything at one time. She should not keep it inside, she needs to get some help and have somebody to talk to. Most of all she can't blame herself. She should never have been put in that situation. I do not know the senerio behind the fire and I know it might sound appropriate and it probably wont make her feel any better, but it is a fact that if the fire was that bad, the majority of the time someone is found in a fire like that, they do not make it, whether they are found or not. The OIC definitly has some questions to answer!!!

[100dragonslayer]

Adrenaline,common sense,and a sense of urgency often don't mix well as in this case. she should have never been put in that position. Tell her to stand tall. The OIC should be held accountable for ALL mistakes. Gross negligence will not be explained or excused by excuses for answers

[gerry_58]

What would you do?

Get a good lawyer!!

[Oldcaptain]

This is my 3rd try and responding to this....and each time my post disappeared........ So here goes again!
Get a good lawyer!!
Why do you need a lawyer? come on........get real! The man is asking for advice...not smart @@s answers.

First and foremost she needs to be reassured it is NOT her fault. BUT, whoever the OIC was could be in deep. If she is new she would not have the proper training to be in that situation. For that matter her parents could sue for the mental anquish this is causing her, not to mention the fact that she is under age and should not be in that building.

Assuming this is an American dept, then she should not have been permitten to enter the structure despite manpower issues. This is a gross infration of child labor laws as well as all the standards that NFPA and OSHA could shove down one's throat...
Mom...you and I agree on a lot of things, but I have to differ with you on this. Her age may not have a thing to do with it, depending on where she lives. In Virginia for instance a 16 yr old that is a member of a Fire Department Junior Program or an Explorer Post may participate in Fire 1 & 2 Training if sponsored by a fire department. Additionally, they may (depending on the jurisdiction) have the ability to enroll in that same training in their Junior and Senior year of high school (again...if active member or explorer with sponsor. My son graduated at 17 with his certs. Once they have the certs, and the AHJ authorizes it, they can fight fire along with anyone else. But I do agree with you on the need for CISD....she needs it now and needs it before she troubles herself to the point she can not handle it.

We have all been a part of a search in a building where the victim was found too late or not at all until after. In my case, I was involved in a rapid search (in my younger days) under heavy heat and fire conditions (alone) for a small child in a basement. I found him dead.....and in all actuality, he was dead before we arrived based on conditions. However, the fact that I had a young child at home his age (4) combined with the fact that his older brother (7) had started the fire playing with matches made it a rough one and it troubled me. I can still see them both to this day when I think back....it is still so real. CISD helped me get through that.... It is very beneficial.

As far as the quote about NFPA and OSHA.... No one is going to shove anything down your throat. The fact remains that NFPA standards are just that....National Standards for operation. They are not law unless the AHJ adopts them....and if anyone adopts them, I challenge you to meet all of them. OSHA does not come into play unless you are and OSHA state or unless you State has adopted similar laws. Local jurisdicitions will tell you they do not have to abide by those federal standards unles they are adopted by the AHJ....Guess that is one for the judge! And as far as Child labor laws........Unless changed recently the law says that minors under the age of 18 may participate in hazardous occupations if they receive the proper training and it addresses firefighters...... I am not dissing NFPA...in fact, I support the standards as well as OSHA regs...but the bottom line is...we would all have trouble complying. The state of Fla just made NFPA 1403 LAW!!!!

With that being said.... What the author did not tell us was the level of training this young lady has/had. So it is hard to make a good call here.

We can all say that we would have done this or that....but in reality....that is BS....you can not say what you would have done, because you DO NOT KNOW...YOU OR I WERE NOT THERE. So do not crucify the OIC.

First..We are all taught (in anything in life) that we should never do something we are not comfortable with and that we should tell someone we are uncomfortable. If you are given an order on the fireground, you are obligated to tell the person giving it that you have not been trained and then you are further obligated to decide if you can still safely do it despite your training level.

Next.....There is probably not a person who has responded here (or that will respond) that has been on a fire who has not been in the building alone at least once in their career..... Tell me different and I will say you better think again.

Next....While I will agree that 17 in young, it does not necessarily mean you lack maturity. I have some folks that work in my department that are in their 20's and my 18 y/o son who is a freshman in college has more maturity than they do. My oldest son (now 23) caught his first fire at age 18 and the Captain who he was with on the line, said that he performed without hesitation and as well as most seasoned vets.....

This young lady reacted based on the situation at hand and the end result was devestating to her. That is unfortunate and hopefully she can recover. She did what she had to do based on what she was directed to do and what she knew potentially could happen if she did not. Unfortunately the outcome was the same.

This is a clear case of RISK vs BENEFIT. Should she have been put in that situation? Certainly not................But it happened. The focus should be on helping her heal and making her see her actions did not lead to the death.

My advice is to try and get her back in the saddle again and get her some help. I am more than willing to talk to her personnally if the author wants to contact me via Private Message and set it up.

Lastly....GOOD LUCK young lady!

[SmokeEater77]

While I don't totally agree with gerry's comments about getting a good lawyer, it wouldn't hurt to talk to one just for a CYA type basis. However, I would strongly encourage her to stick with it. Just because she missed a victim in a search in which she probably didnt have the training, definately wasn't properly supervised, or accompanied, is not a reason for her to just up and quit. She definately needs to get some kind of Critical incident debrief, or PTSD debrief so that she isn't dealing with this in years to come.

Had I been in her shoes, at 17, young, inexperianced, but gung ho, and ready to take on the world, I would probably have done the same thing, gone in and searched, some times, especially in small rural departments when you only have a handfull of people to respond initially, and the next arriving department is over 10 minutes away, you have to make some criticial decisions, that may not always comply with NFPA and OSHA guidelines. Keep in mind these are just that, guidelines. No "regulation or guideline" ever established can totally cover every situation. And when a child is "missing" at a working fire, who isn't going to risk their own life to attempt to save that child. Many times in the heat of the moment we make snap decisions that may not be the best, but we do based on limited information, prior training, and our interpertation of the situation.

It's always easy to sit back and armchair quarterback, or next shift critique the actions of other on a fire. There is a time and a place for this, and its called the After Action Review/ or post incident review/debrief.

Was such a review conducted? was she chastized for missing the child? did the leadership properly counsel her, refer her to a chaplin? clergy? or other professional to help her deal with the incident?

If one is going to stick with Fire as a career, they will be guarenteed to see death up close, and more than they will want to. It's how you deal with it that makes the difference.

[gerry_58]

[QUOTE=Oldcaptain]This is my 3rd try and responding to this....and each time my post disappeared........ So here goes again!

Why do you need a lawyer? come on........get real! The man is asking for advice...not smart @@s answers.




That was not a smart ass answer at all. I am totally serious. She needs an advocate to ensure her rights and benefits are protected under the law, and to make sure she is not made to be the scapegoat in this. I will not begin to mention the multitude of legal issues something like this can create. Getting good legal advice early on is NEVER bad advice.