Refuse To Fight Fire ???

[eetrkn'co]

READ THIS SICKENING ARTICLE



Firefighters refuse to battle blaze, but watch

By JOHN GRANT EMEIGH


Tribune Chronicle

McKINLEY HEIGHTS - Firefighters from Niles watched a Weathersfield house burn for about 20 minutes Thursday afternoon without attempting to put it out because the fire occurred outside the city limits.
Jason Radcliff said most of the items in his home at 2782 Robbins Ave. may have been saved if the Niles firefighters had acted immediately.

Instead, the Niles crew waited for the Weathersfield Fire Department to come and put out the blaze. Radcliff said Niles firefighters had three firetrucks at the scene and could have easily put out the fire.

''You don't just sit there and watch someone's livelihood burn,'' Radcliff said.

Capt. Randy Ciminero of the Niles Fire Department confirmed his firefighters mistakenly were dispatched to the scene because the fire originally was thought to have been in Niles.

Since the fire was not in the city's jurisdiction, Ciminero said his firefighters just waited to make sure no one was injured.

Radcliff, whose house was no more than 200 yards from Niles city limits, was angry the Niles firefighters didn't help.

''Don't call yourself a firefighter if you do something like that,'' he said.

The Niles firefighters said they would have done something if there was someone trapped in the house, but Ciminero said his department was not obligated to fight the fire.

Ciminero said he didn't want his firefighters tied up with this fire when they could have been called out to a fire in Niles.

''I'm paid by the city of Niles. I'm paid to protect the property of the people of Niles,'' he said.

Radcliff, who has rented the house for the past five years, said the fire was contained to one room when Niles firefighters arrived. However, the fire spread by the time firefighters from the Weathersfield station arrived.

It takes Weathersfield firefighters longer to respond to fires because it only has part-time firefighters who usually are not at the station when called.

The Niles department was dispatched to the fire because the 911 call was made from a cell phone, and all cell phone calls go to the Ohio State Highway Patrol in Southington. The patrol dispatcher mistakenly notified the Niles department about the fire because Robbins Avenue also runs through Niles.

Firefighters from Weathersfield's Station No. 40, who were eventually called about 1:10 p.m., put out the fire. An official from the Weathersfield department said the fire was contained to a room and part of the attic.

The cause of the fire was undetermined, the Fire Department reported.

One Weathersfield firefighter was taken to a local hospital after suffering breathing problems and was treated and released that day.

Weathersfield Fire Chief Randall Pugh was not available for comment.

Radcliff said he and his fiancee and their three children will have to stay in a hotel.

[fireslayer]

my 1st question... dont they have a mutual aid system set up? if so y wasent it used :confused: even though i wasent there and dont know everything about it thats still wrong

[FFMedic911]

I'm not sure I really buy into the bit about wanting to keep his firefighters available for Niles. Could he not just send the FFs from the other company that was supposed to be at the fire to his town to cover?

Was anyone there, or has talked to someone who was there? I'd like to know the whole story behind it all....I'd be willing to bet there is some kind of anymosity between the two departments over something very foolish.

I find it hard to believe this actually happened just as the article makes it sound: 3 pieces of apparatus satffed with trained, professional FF's sat 200 yards from a structure fire and did nothing because it was outside their first due???

[dpd403]

What the fuck were they thinking?

Do something other than stand there with your thumb up your ass. My god, don't sit there and watch the house burn down. I don't care what name is on the side of your truck, I don't know anyone who wouldn't stop and at least try to help whether in or out of their district...

[Lt.Dan]

If I were in a position of power in that FD or town that would be the last fire they would ever see again while riding a fire truck. Nothing can justify their reasoning. The officer (s) should be charged.

[Phantom]

Over the years the midwest has produced a few of these events, thye usually have to do with contract fire departments and payment.

I gotta believe there is more to this story than we have so far, nothing in my mind that will justify the fire department's actions.. but more information so that we will understand what they were thinking.

[ChiTown]

Phantom, The most "famous" of these types of incidents occured with the Chena-Goldstream Fire Department....in ALASKA. I dont recall too many of these incidents occuring in the midwest. As I recall, the Alaska incident involved a subsrciption service. The homeowner didnt feel it was necessary to pay for fire service. The Chief there took a terrible beating within and outside the fire service..But if you think about it, it sure isnt fair to the people that have paying all along. You might disagree, but I thought at the time the Chief up there did what she had to do. I know of NO subscription fire departments in Illinois.... If it was just a case of being "out of city limits" in this Ohio incident, then heads SHOULD roll.

[whosthechief]

Folks believe it or not this is not as rare as you think and not just from contract departments. Many fire protection districts,towns and cities have this type of set up. Mutual aid just does not happen in some areas of this country. The mutual aid set ups in the D.C. metro area are some of the better ones in the country so for us folks in this part of the country and other areas with mutual aid refuseing to leave the city limits while a building burns is hard to shallow but it happens just like the article said. Its that simple in some places if its not in my town I don't go. SAD!

[Tool Fool]

It's hard to believe that here we are in the 21st Century and Fire Dept's/Firefighters are being made out as complete fools because of the inability of their city/township/district to come up with a mutual aid agreement.

As a one time employee of a Fire District out west {we'll leave it at that} I can attest to the stupidity I witnessed when it came to crossing or not crossing boundaries........

[Vollies Suck]

If this happened exactly as described it is shameful, but the shame is attached to the elected officials of the two towns, not the firefighters. (Like many of you, I think there must be more to this story than this. Maybe some feud between the two towns' elected officials or something like that?)

That chief who stood by and watched that fire probably hated to do so, but he had to cover his ass professionally. What responsibility would he bear if one of his men had been injured or killed fighting a fire outside the city limits? Or if there was a civilian loss of life in the city while their FD was outside it?

Every community has the responsibility to provide for its own fire protection, and mutual aid agreements should be in place to cover situations like this. That's the real lesson of this story.

[poe26a]

Can we say LAW Suit??

[Chuck Collins]

I do not care what other reasons there are behind this! There just is no excuse. The entire departmental staff that was was involved in this should be fired.


You say vollies suck hmmmm these guys were paid WTF. Well all arguments frankly suck that is what mutaul aid is all about!!!!!!

[1014engine]

This incident is shameful and the OIC from Niles is just as guilty as anyone else, if not more so.

I’m reminded of a few instances in recent memory when PG units were accidentally dispatched into DC, or happened upon a fire that was on the DC side of the line. In every case that I am aware of, the PG units responded and did what needed to be done. I feel confident that the DC companies would do the same.

When there is the possibility for loss of human life as exists in a structure fire, it’s not the time to debate legalities. Let the white shirts and the suits sort that out later. -- We are firefighters. We took an oath to save lives and property and this is what we must do. The unfortunate homeowner was right, ''Don't call yourself a firefighter if you do something like that.''

Kurt Vonnegut said, "I can think of no more stirring symbol of man's humanity to man than a fire engine." Congratulations to the Niles Fire Department for proving that statement a myth.

[PSUFireFighter]

By the information provided it is hard to see what actually went on. I would say this was probably a lose-lose situation for the fire department. If they crossed over the line to fight the fire, the fire department could be sued by their jurisdiction or the jurisdiction they crossed into because they were out of their boundaries. If they just sit there and watch it burn, the department could be sued by the residents of the house because they didn't help extinguish the flames.

[BCFD in Philly]

Quote from the article:

"The Niles firefighters said they would have done something if there was someone trapped in the house, but Ciminero said his department was not obligated."


There is a whole lot more going on here. This statement says "not obligated" - that is different from "prohibited". How did they know no one was trapped?

These guys should be held responsible for negligent acts if they could have fought the fire but did not because they were "not obligated". What the F*** does that mean?

If they are "not obligated" and are not going to do anything why not return to Niles and provide the protection they appear "obligated" to provide! They made the situation worse by standing around and doing nothing.

[regs1]

While the Niles Fire Department did not attack the fire and waited for Weathersfield Fire Department to respond, I have a feeling there is a lot more to this story than posted here.

Vollies Suck is correct, there has to be something between the two local governments that a simple jurisdiction item. To condemn the Niles Fire Department based upon a newspaper story is foolish. Many times reporters will interpret the truth to meet there needs.

In this case we have to look further than this incident, and probably find out the Niles Fire Department fire chief did not have a choice in this matter.

To find out the truth in this matter we need to know the past history between these two communities. Remember the fire chief only follows the local government policy, he does not make it up on his own.

[snizzledanizzle]

I wonder if the Niles FD would have acted similarly in a situation involving a motor vehicle crash with entrapment "just across" boundary lines. While there is abolutely no excuse for their actions, something deeper between the two agencies exists here. The Niles FD chief must have been aware of the consequences for his actions. So the real question here is why did he feel that doing nothing was better than doing something? If no mutual aid agreement exists, where does help come from on multiple alarm fires? If help comes from adjoining jurisdictions, then obviously these two departments have worked together before. More information about the jurisdictional relationships is needed before judgement can be passed.

[1014engine]

Originally posted by regs1
To condemn the Niles Fire Department based upon a newspaper story is foolish. Many times reporters will interpret the truth to meet there needs.
Which part of the story do you think is untrue - that Niles FD was there? Or that they did nothing?

The Tribune Chronicle is the local daily newspaper of Warren, Ohio. The reporter’s name is JOHN GRANT EMEIGH he can be reached at: The Tribune Chronicle 240 Franklin St. S.E., Warren, Ohio 44482; toll-free @ 888-550-TRIB or
jemeigh@tribune-chronicle.com (mailto:jemeigh@tribune-chronicle.com). If the facts reported are false, that needs to come out. If you can substantiate your “hunch” that the reporter is misleading or deceiving the public, please let the rest of us in on the secret. Until then I will assume the article to be reliable.

Those of you who think there is some history, or more to the story are probably right. You will probably find that Niles is a full-time paid department, Weathersfield is a part-time department and does not want to pay Niles for automatic aid (as distinct from mutual aid). In any case, those are the kind of details the suits get paid to iron out. When Niles was dispatched the mistake was already made. They subsequently arrived on the scene of a working house fire and they were at that time morally obligated to intervene. Their choice should have been clear and unambiguous. "BCFD in Philly" is right. The Niles firefighters said they would have done something if there was someone trapped in the house. How did they know no one was trapped?

This incident would be the equivalent of Kentland pulling up in front of a burning house in Bladensburg and refusing to do anything because the homeowner did not contribute to Kentland’s fund drive - so they’re “not obligated.” That is absurd and morally bankrupt!

[regs1]

I based my opinion on two local metro wash papers - Washington post, and the Washington times. I been involved in events that they wrote on. The basic facts were correct, but the slant on especially the background data was deleted, or interpreted.
A couple of classics I can think of – Washington Post Article a couple of months ago -DC fire and EMS is not allowed to respond to PG County or be called on Mutual Aid because they do not meet PG fire Safety Standards.
The same paper reported about twenty years ago that DCFD would not call on PG fire because the quality of training and manning was not up to DCFD standards.

And lets not forget my favorite – this has appeared in many local papers, “the fire did $10,000 worth of damage, but the fire department caused an additional $9,000 damage by breaking windows, cutting a hole in the roof, and poking small holes in various walls and ceilings”

Or the reporter who wrote about firefighters are not heros based upon his "facts" of 9-11 and the recent forest fires in Cal.

I do not know enough of the background information to make a judgment on this incident. There might be a legal problem here that we do not know about, and not reported. You state one is a part time department, one full time, “Weathersfield is a part-time department and does not want to pay Niles for automatic aid” Question, Since when does a department pay another department for mutual aid? Based on what, manning, equiupment cost, insurance? The perhaps the Niles fire chief is under standing orders from the mayor, city council or whoever is his boss that under no circumstances is he allowed to respond into Weathersfield, if he does he violates a direct command.

The reported put the basic facts out, correct, but the basic question of why was not answered in the old reporting of who, what, where, when, why? I believe why once reported is where the answer maybe found.

[1014engine]

Speaking of the Washington Post, wasn’t it their ad that said “If you don’t get it you don’t get it”? -- We’re not talking about who picks up the trash in what neighborhood, or who pays for the libraries. We’re talking about peoples lives potentially being lost in a situation where seconds can make the difference.

Hypothetical question: You are the OIC in the Niles FD engine that afternoon and arrive to find a working house fire just across the line in Weathersfield, what would you do? – Oh and by the way, upon taking a second glance you realize it’s your mother’s house?

This was very poor judgment on someone’s part, and another black eye for the fire service. Silly me getting all nostalgic, but I can remember when words like DUTY, and COURAGE and HONOR meant more than "legal problems" and "standing orders."

[PimpOnDuty]

I can sincerely say, that only 200 yards outside of city limits? No doubt even if I was the only one doing it, and beating the daylights out of every one of my fellow firefighters on the way, I'm sure there's enough hoseline on the truck to make it close enough to shoot water at the place.

No way in hell am I watching a place burn.

As for the validity of the article? Who knows. As a Journalism student myself, I've known people to edge articles to be a little harsh.

A loose comment, but J. Jonah Jamison (for all us geeks out there, the Spider-Man character) always said, "People want right and wrong, good and bad. They want a hero to cheer and a villian to boo. THAT'S what sells Newspapers."

[regs1]

Yes, it is a sad day when events like this occur. Unfortunately we live is a very lawsuit happy society where even if there is a different opinion on something, there is a lawsuit.

[BigDave]

I may have missed it here (because I didn't take the time to read all of the posts), but I first saw this on Firehouse.com and while I can't say that I agree with the judgement used by the OIC of or the Niles Fire Department, I don't know all of the facts.

The article I read did say that had there been entrapment, the Niles Fire Department would have been more aggressive in their response to the fire.

[BCFD in Philly]

Originally posted by BigDave
I may have missed it here (because I didn't take the time to read all of the posts), but I first saw this on Firehouse.com and while I can't say that I agree with the judgement used by the OIC of or the Niles Fire Department, I don't know all of the facts.

The article I read did say that had there been entrapment, the Niles Fire Department would have been more aggressive in their response to the fire.

Once again, How would they know for sure whether there was entrapment without entering the structure?

[BigDave]

I can see your point and am merely speculating from the article that I read that someone from the Niles Fire Department spoke to someone else at the scene to confirm no one was in the house.

I hope to follow along with this one just to see what happens.

[Chief601]

Ciminero is simply a jackass giving a bad name to all of us that do the job for the love of the job. How can anyone that claims to be a firefighter sit and watch. If he wasn't going to do anything at all he should have turned his trucks around and went home. The entire fire service gained new respect after 9-11. People that had never given us a second thought went out of their way to thank us and watch out for us and in one quick moment you get some crack head that shows poor judgment and ruins the good name of the bretheren. Vollies suck, very good point btw. Proves that you are true to the service even though you have your doubts about volunteerism. Be safe everyone.

[Saint of Quench]

Here is the information 1014engine was talking about. This info is available on Kentland's website. This is the morally right way to do it. And in our line of work is there really any other way? Another question; What about people that are injured or killed helping others because that is what they have been trained to do, but they are outside their jurisdiction? Should they simply stand aside and wait because they don't have some sort of aggreement with the municipality they are in? I am certainly glad that most of the members in the fire department (career and volunteer) understand the concept of helping people who are in need of our services no matter where they are.

KENTLAND VOLUNTEERS FIRST ARRIVING
ON NORTHEAST D.C. STORE FRONT FIRE
November 1, 2003 - Within an hour of a House Fire in Seat Pleasant, Kentland Volunteers were out of bed and at it again. This time responding 4th due on Box Alarm 38-03 in the area of Eastern Avenue and Sheriff Road for the Building Fire. As Engine 331, Rescue Engine 333, Chief's 33A and 33B arrived in the area, some activity was noticed one block in on the Washington DC side of Eastern Avenue. After further investigation, fire was found coming from the front of a converted one story church at 5210 Sheriff Road N.E. As the crew from Rescue Engine 333 forced entry into the front, Engine 331 advanced an attack line and started to knock down the fire. The cause of this fire was found to be arson. Units from Kentland cleared in one hour.

[dpd403]

That's how I would hope we all would act even if 200 yards over the "imaginary" line. Do your job and worry about the BS politics later.

[ofd226]

These people (not firefighters) are a disgrace and should lose their badges.:mad:

We have no mutual aid agreements, but as we border 4 citys often fires are dual dispatched. We always will put the fire out first, then worry about the consequences later.

[fire45engine]

Ok...before I post anything here just know that this is a "what if" situation and even though parts are true not all may agree with them. Being a baltimore city fireman I have learned that baltimore city and county operate in totally different manners. Baltimore city firemen do not always see baltimore county firemen as aggressive enough and do not always get along with their counterparts across that imaginary line. BUT......I can guarantee you that if a city piece of apparatus was out on a stroll and happened to see a working fire in a baltimore county dwelling they would not just let it burn and watch it. And I can also guarantee that the same would apply for baltimore county equipment. There is no such thing as a mutual aid agreement between baltimore city and county that i am aware of except for the medics. The fact that this chief stood there and let his crews watch this house burn is a monstrosity. Did we forget that the motto of the fire service is to protect not only life but also PROPERTY and ENVIROMENT!!!!! As we all know letting this house burn put a stop to protecting property but we also sometimes forget that the burning contents also pose a threat to our enviroment. Plastics and other synthetics give off toxic gases.....cancer causing agents etc. Yes we may not know all the points necessary to pass judgement but the basic fact is they were wrong no matter what. I would love to have a follow up and see if anything is done to the chief and members. But for now...everyone STAY SAFE!!!!

[BCFDTRUCKMAN]

Sounds like they were scared. That's every firefighters dream come true. To be first in and no one to steal the fire from you. They were probably waiting for the calvary. I can hear it now, "You go in." "No, you go in." " I ain't going in there." "Me neither." "I'll wait for the RIT." "Me too.'

[BCFD Engine 25]

Originally posted by fire45engine
[B]Being a baltimore city fireman I have learned that baltimore city and county operate in totally different manners. Baltimore city firemen do not always see baltimore county firemen as aggressive enough and do not always get along with their counterparts across that imaginary line. BUT......I can guarantee you that if a city piece of apparatus was out on a stroll and happened to see a working fire in a baltimore county dwelling they would not just let it burn and watch it. And I can also guarantee that the same would apply for baltimore county equipment. There is no such thing as a mutual aid agreement between baltimore city and county that i am aware of except for the medics.B]

Please allow me to add some comments and correct some misinformation in this post.

fire45engine, I do not know how long you have been a "baltimore city fireman". I am a Baltimore City firefighter, and have been for more than 29 years. In that time, I have had many, many occasions to interact with our brothers and sisters from Baltimore County, from training sessions to working fires. I have NEVER had the impression that Baltimore County firefighters are not "aggressive enough", nor have I EVER witnessed a SINGLE instance of friction between Baltimore County and Baltimore City firefighters. I and my comrades have the utmost respect for our brothers and sisters in Baltimore County, and wish to assure them that your opinion definitely does NOT reflect the opinion of other BCFD members.

Regarding your allegation that there is no mutual aid agreement between Baltimore City and Baltimore County: I call your attention to the Baltimore City Fire Department Manual of Procedure, MOPs 515-2, 515-8, 575-1, 609, 609-1, and 617-1, each of which addresses various aspects of the mutual aid agreements between the City of Baltimore and Baltimore, Anne Arundel, Harford and Howard Counties, as well as BWI Airport, the US Coast Guard, and EMRC.

I well remember many times when Baltimore County and Anne Arundel County units have transferred into Baltimore City during our various additional alarms, and Baltimore City units, especially on the south and southwest sides of town, respond into those Counties on occasion.

Finally, regarding the subject of this thread: BCFD MOP 609-1, titled "Routine fires and emergencies outside of Baltimore City", specifies the procedure to be followed in such cases. While it is too long for me to post it here in its entirety, it declares that in the event that Baltimore City units respond to an incident that turns out to be located in one of the adjacent Counties, "The City unit(s) on the scene will proceed to handle the incident if no county units are present. If county units are present or subsequently arrive on the scene, City unit(s) will render whatever assistance is requested by the County Incident Commander, who will be in charge of the emergency." This MOP has been in effect since 1990, and updated an agreement that dates back well before my appointment in 1974.

You, fire45engine, as an employee of this agency, are responsible for knowing the above information; if you are unaware of it, I suggest you spend more time studying our Manual of Procedure, and less time trying to stir up trouble between the members of the Baltimore City and Baltimore County Fire Departments.

To my Baltimore County brothers and sisters: Please accept my apology for this individual's comments, and rest assured that his ignorant opinion is only his own. Stay safe.

[Hopewell]

Been on both sides of the fence and run mutual aid calls playing for both teams, and working with paids and vollies. Never had a problem. Always kind of enjoyed the change of pace and different outlook.

[BCFD Engine 25]

There are some damned good firefighters in Baltimore County (and Anne Arundel too), and they have bailed us out on many occasions over the years. In fact, I daresay that our mutual aid agreement benefits Baltimore City far more than it has ever benefitted Baltimore County or Anne Arundel County. That's why it pissed me off that someone who claimed to be one of us would make such an insulting, inflammatory, and factually incorrect post.

On last night's 4-alarm fire in Curtis Bay, Anne Arundel units, including a Battalion Chief, were on the scene working alongside our people, and Baltimore County units from Towson and Hillendale were transferred to the northern part of the city. This sort of thing happens with such frequency that only somebody who is either brand new or dumb as a brick would claim there is no mutual aid agreement between Baltimore City and Baltimore County.

If fire45engine really is a Baltimore City firefighter, then clearly we need to raise our entrance standards.

[fire45engine]

Number one bcfd engine 25 i was not in any way trying to "stir the pot." I made a mistake and can own up to that. I apologize to you and others for my mistake. As far as always working well together. I have been on a couple fire scenes where county and city units were on scene and tempers may not have flared but comments were made about not being aggressive enough. I guess it has just been my experience...even though you are correct it has not been long but i do have experience.....that the two agencies while they do work together well most of the time do not always get along and those are the incidents that i have been involved in. But like i said i will own up to my mistakes and apologize to you and others, and as well will read my m.o.p.'s again. as far as bashing county firemen.....i will not do that because i have many friends and accuantances in the county. So one more time i will apologize for my innacuracies. Everyone have a good day and stay safe.

[BCFD Engine 25]

Thank you for your apology. I understand that different people have different professional experiences, but let me offer you a bit of advice.

Because we firefighters are engaged in a life-and-death enterprise, and because we are good-hearted people who want to help others, every last one of us would bristle at any suggestion that he is inferior to anybody else. I think each of us does his best, and we should all keep that in mind.

Some agencies have different philosophies than others. While you might think some particular agency is not as "aggressive" as we are, firefighters from other jurisdictions might look at Baltimore City and judge us to be foolhardy, or given to taking unnecessary risks, or unconcerned about the safety of our own people. Looking at the number of injuries we've had -- some of them serious -- on vacant dwelling fires, I can well imagine that some other firefighters might think we are positively reckless.

We are all in the business of saving lives and property, and I have been proud to work with my brothers and sisters from other jurisdictions throughout my career. When you accumulate some more time in the BCFD, I trust you will conclude that any negative experiences you've have with other fire departments are an aberration, and not the norm.

[T-Dawg21Trk]

Our 4th alarm the other night had a bunch of AAFD units operating on scene. I personally saw them on hoselines right next to our guys in numerous houses. As the(AAFD) didn't respond til the 4th alarm, most if not all were deployed into the more involved houses to the right of the main fire building(Side4).

[Vollies Suck]

Originally posted by Chief601
Ciminero is simply a jackass giving a bad name to all of us that do the job for the love of the job. How can anyone that claims to be a firefighter sit and watch. If he wasn't going to do anything at all he should have turned his trucks around and went home. The entire fire service gained new respect after 9-11. People that had never given us a second thought went out of their way to thank us and watch out for us and in one quick moment you get some crack head that shows poor judgment and ruins the good name of the bretheren. Vollies suck, very good point btw. Proves that you are true to the service even though you have your doubts about volunteerism. Be safe everyone.

Thanks for the compliment. I do agree that if they were not going to respond to that fire, they should have left. Watching it burn just rubbed salt in the wound.

Let me suggest that all of you speculating on what you would have done in this situation really look at it from Capt. Ciminero's point of view. He has an obligation to obey the legitimate orders of his employer, and that apparently includes not responding to any fire outside the political boundary of his town. It's real easy to say "Damn it, I'm a firefighter! I would have disobeyed orders and put out that fire anyway!" but would you really do that if you knew you would lose your job? Would you really do it if you knew that there was no life at risk?

I maintain that the real villains here are the local politicians who have apparently failed to hammer out a mutual aid agreement. Read the policy Baltimore follows, as posted by BCFD Engine 25, for a simple, straightforward example of how to permit responses across a city boundary. There is no reason why every town in the US couldn't have the same kind of agreement.

[Saint of Quench]

On 9/11, units from many jurisdictions responded to the Pentagon fire. In particular P.G. County units transferred to D.C. then through it to the Pentagon in Virginia on Government Property and proceeded to help put the fire out. Here is my point:

I do not believe there is any standing mutual aid agreement for P.G. County and the county in Virginia (I could be wrong). The building was a government installation so what does that do for mutual aid agreements? Yes they were asked for, but I bet some of the people heading there had no idea about whether there was any standing mutual aid agreements. These people went and put out the fire because that is what was required of them in their job. My opinion only, but there should be some national law or code that states that a responding company, when acting in good faith and according to their training, can assist in giving EMS care or fire suppression activities then they will not be held liable unless gross negligence is uncovered. I know many people would not like this, but it would certainly help with an issue as common sense as this to those of us in the service that actually care about lives and property and not about it being just a job.

[regs1]

Saint of Quench

PG is a part of COG, therefore part of the mutual aid agreements between these government bodies. This agreement covers all the problems you stated.

[1014engine]

Originally posted by Vollies Suck
...would you really do that if you knew you would lose your job? Would you really do it if you knew that there was no life at risk? Again, how do you know that there is no life at risk? What if the reports that “nobody is in there” were wrong? What if a body had been found in that house after the arrival of the later units? Now you’ve gone from an embarrassing incident to possibly facing charges of criminally negligent homicide. The only way to guarantee that “nobody is in there” is to go in and conduct a search.

Blind obedience to the rule book is the quality of a robot, not a leader. The firefighting profession is one that requires officers to use considerable judgment and discretion in the performance of their duties. Sometimes leadership involves decision making in uncertain and complex situations. There is a more to command than being “by the book,” the book cannot cover every possible situation. There is, however, always an obligation to conduct oneself in a professional and ethical manner. There is always an obligation to protect the department from embarrassment or discredit.

Courage is the mental quality that recognizes fear of danger or criticism, but enables a man to proceed in the face of it. Do you really think they would fire the officer for deciding to take the potentially life-saving actions of fighting the fire? For having the common decency to help another human being whose home is being destroyed? For acting in the best interest of his department? What would they even charge him with, "being a firefighter"?

Look at the bottom line on this incident – 1.) Property loss was suffered by the homeowner that could have been prevented if Niles F.D. had seen fit to do so. 2.) The name of the Niles F.D. is mud - locally, nationally, even internationally. No matter what else they may accomplish as an organization in the future, they will always be remembered for this failure.

[closet ff]

You all shouldn't blame the fd involved. There are many places in these great United States that you don't cross other jurisdictions lines, unless called for or there is a life safety issue. We on the east coast are used to mutial aid agreements, where we don't think about crossing over boarders to give assistants to other fd's. I've talk to firefighters from the west and southwest, where they have dedicated fire tax districts, that they can't or won't cross in to unless called for. Even in the same fire district if the homeowner didn't pay their fire tax the fd will watch their house burn to the ground, after all life saftey was taken care of. I don't know if Niles fd is in one of these situations but it sounds like it. Now don't get me wrong, I personally think it's stupid to have this kind of set up, but I can't blame the fd. I blame the local polititions for this!! Hopefully after this incident the the polititions will feel the heat from the citizens and change this.:( Peace out and stay safe.

[Vollies Suck]

Originally posted by 1014engine
Again, how do you know that there is no life at risk? What if the reports that “nobody is in there” were wrong? What if a body had been found in that house after the arrival of the later units? Now you’ve gone from an embarrassing incident to possibly facing charges of criminally negligent homicide...Blind obedience to the rule book is the quality of a robot, not a leader. The firefighting profession is one that requires officers to use considerable judgment and discretion in the performance of their duties...Do you really think they would fire the officer for deciding to take the potentially life-saving actions of fighting the fire? For having the common decency to help another human being whose home is being destroyed? For acting in the best interest of his department? What would they even charge him with, "being a firefighter"?

For someone who writes so eloquently, it's a shame that you are so wrong. That officer's first obligation is to the people who pay his salary, namely the citizens of his town. Whether you like it or not, a professional Fire Department is run according to rules and regulations, and anytime you decide deliberately to break one of them, you must be aware of the possible consequences. You want him to break the rules and respond outside his jurisdiction, but suppose, in doing so, one of his men is crippled or killed, or one of the citizens who pays his salary is killed or loses his home while he is courageously breaking the rules?

FYI, the original news article said there was no one in the house. Are you a lawyer? How do you arrive at the conclusion that these firefighters would have been charged with "criminally negligent homicide"? Cite your source for that statute please?

I think he would be charged with disobeying an order, and yes, I think he could be fired. Those of you who look down your noses at those of us who do this "for money" need to ask yourselves if you would be willing to risk your livelihood this way.

If you want to blame somebody for this admittedly embarrassing story, blame the local politicians who have failed to hammer out a Mutual Aid agreement.

[2EngTrk3]

Although I do not totally agree with the actions taken, it could have been worse. Niles obviously could tell it was not their run. The capt. could have just as easily said, "we're approaching the scene, this is going to be 40's run. They have a working fire, Niles engine is returning in service."

Just imagine how much worse of a picture that would have displayed. Resident seeing the Eng. screaming towards his burning house, he's now thinking everything's gonna be okay. Then all of a sudden the Eng. shuts the lights and siren down, and turns around.

That would have been a refusal to take action. But the Niles Eng. did arrive on scene and continued to stay until relieved. I hope that if anything would have changed while they were there watching that posed a life safety hazard, that they would have then intervened.

We do not know how long after the capt. relized it was not Niles, that he told the dispatcher to notify 40. Did he do it as soon as he seen the fire was out of city limits? Did he do it as the truck was just arriving infront of the house? Was the Niles Eng. already on scene for some time before he relayed? Did he first check for life safety and then, when there wasn't any, finally call for 40?

1. He could have waited until a 40 unit called in and said, "we are on scene 40, this is your fire, do you want us to take action."

2. Also could have called for a stand by to cover Niles, (still protecting the city, just not with his truck) and went to work at the house fire.

That there would have gotten over the litigation because the consent was given by 40 for Niles to handle(#1).

Or the capt. could prove that the best interest in the people of Niles was still adressed by using the stand-by.(#2)

We do not know everything that went on so we can only speculate on what out imagination tells us happened.

[Dreamcometrue]

I had seen on FH that Niles did create a mutual aid agreement several weeks ago. Can't find it now though.

[2EngTrk3]

Dreamcometrue: Here it is

From Firehouse.com

JOHN GRANT EMEIGH
Courtesy of Tribune Chronicle

NILES - The city's Fire Department has entered into a mutual aid agreement with Weathersfield that will ensure both departments will fight a fire even if it is out of their jurisdiction.

City officials announced the agreement Wednesday evening at the City Council meeting in response to a house fire last week in which Niles firefighters refused to battle a fire because it was just outside city limits in Weathersfield Township. The home was destroyed by the fire by the time Weathersfield's part-time department arrived. Safety Director Maurice Guarino said the city has been addressing this issue since Friday.

''We're working to make sure this ill-fated occurrence never happens again,'' Guarino said.

Tom Telego, the emergency management coordinator for Niles, said the city set up a team of investigators, including Mayor Ralph Infante, fire Chief Charles Semple, Guarino and Telego, to look into the fire. Though the investigation is not complete, Telego said they met with officials from the Weathersfield Fire Department and worked out a verbal mutual aid agreement. He said they plan to put it in writing and make it permanent policy.

''Any call will be fought by the fire department that arrives on scene first until the department of that jurisdiction arrives,'' Telego said.

On Jan. 15, firefighters from Niles watched from their trucks for several minutes as a home at 2782 Robbins Ave. burned until firefighters from Weathersfield arrived to put out the flames. The incident drew national media attention and much criticism of the Niles Fire Department.

Despite the public outcry, the mayor said he will continue to support the city's firefighters.

''This received much attention - attention that is undue to our Fire Department. I believe our Fire Department is one of the best in entire state,'' Infante said.

Though last week's fire is still under investigation, Telego admitted the team found some ''breakdowns of vital communications'' between the two departments during the fire.

Niles was mistakenly dispatched to the fire and, after making sure nobody was in the home, called Weathersfield to the scene. Telego said there was very little radio contact between the two departments and they city plans to work to improve its communications.

Guarino apologized on behalf of the city for the property that was lost due to the delay in fighting the fire. Jason Radcliff, who lived in the Robbins Avenue home, said this week that many of his belongings were destroyed in the fire.

[1014engine]

Vollies Suck:
No, I’m not a lawyer. But then, it doesn’t take F. Lee Bailey to figure out that if someone had died in that house, the guy who made the decision to sit and do nothing is in big trouble. If he somehow did avoid prosecution, he may wish he hadn’t after the civil proceedings – at least in jail he’d have three hots and a cot.

The original article didn’t say there was no one in the house. What it said was “The Niles firefighters said they would have done something if there was someone trapped in the house.” There is a difference. Assuming a bystander told them there was nobody trapped, is that any form of guarantee? Bystander reports are not always accurate or factual for any number of reasons.

“Since the fire was not in the city's jurisdiction, Ciminero said his firefighters just waited to make sure no one was injured.” - If they were sure nobody was in the house why would they have to wait to make sure no one was injured?

A major industry website recently did a poll, with obvious reference to this incident:

You are Dispatched to a House Fire In Your Town, Then Arrive to Find a Working Fire, But Its Across Your Town Line, and You Have No Legal Requirement to Put It Out. Everyone is Out of the House. What Do You Do?

- Put the Fire Out, Deal With Politics and Consequences Later - 95.7%
- Back Away, Its Not Your Legal Obligation to Put It Out - 2.8%
- Don't Know - 1.5%
- Total votes: 11252

Wow, those are pretty impressive numbers. I wouldn’t have thought it was possible to get 95.7% of the people in the fire service to agree on anything. Kind of reaffirms my faith in the vast majority of the people who do this job. Even the City of Niles has apologized and is “working to make sure this ill-fated occurrence never happens again.''

Now. As far as your statement: “Those of you who look down your noses at those of us who do this ‘for money’…”? Tell me, what do you know about my status - career, volunteer or otherwise? You might be better off by not to jumping to conclusions without benefit of the facts.

[regs1]

After attending a two-week course at the NFA, it seems that some mid west and west fire departments do not have mutual aid agreements like we have on the east coast.
1014engine you are putting your experience that you have in the metro Washington area and believing this is the same all over. In this case Vollies Suck is correct, and confirmed by the article posted by 2EngTrk3. There seems that there was no mutual aid or response plan into a Weathersfield by Niles. In hammering one out, the problem might be solved, but I wonder.

At the NFA, I found when calling for fire companies from a nearby communities, the city, or district that asked for help will pay for that service at a set rate. In some districts, a company cannot respond into another district without orders from the fire chief or up. If they do so, the commander will become responsible for the cost, and any resulting injuries.

In other areas, the commander in charge after the fire is extinguished will be looking for a new job.

In this case it seems that Niles could not respond into the community, the captain was just following orders, and probably if he went into service, his career would probably be over.
This problem was created by politics, and could only be settled that way. As for the poll, so what, without all the facts, Niles fire department looks like a bunch of yahoos, but all is not what it seems. Its the basic Capital Hill two step dance.

1014engine by the way this is not the first case of this type, this has already been in court with private fire companies and paid fire districts refusing to be even dispatched to a reported fire, or after responding, and after making sure no rescue or life problems just let the structure burn.
The responding department has won in each case.

[Lt.Dan]

Common sense has been replaced by political correctness. It’s a sad day when “Firefighters” stand by as a house is burning and do nothing.

You say they don’t have a “Mutual Aide Agreement”, so what. Grow a set of Nuts and go do the job as if it were your house that was on fire!

[1014engine]

I don’t know about everyone else, but I kinda feel like we’ve just about beat this horse to death. When all is said and done it really boils down to a simple matter of doing the right thing, either you do what you know in your heart is right or you do not. No matter how you slice or dice it, it just ain’t right to sit in a fire engine and watch someone’s home burn down, gambling that nobody is dying inside. Either you get that or you don’t. No amount of debating is going to give you a conscience. The whole reason this case drew so much attention and widespread notoriety is for one reason – most people were shocked by the callous disregard shown by the Niles F.D.

I have gained something positive form this: confirmation that the overwhelming majority of us who do this job think our duty to act does not end 200 yards on the other side of an imaginary line. As for you “by the book” guys, I wish you the best of luck in your careers, I know you will go far.

[Loo for life]

Captain you are on the wrong side of this issue!!

1. Yes you are correct that the FD not performing the service in most cases has been found in clear of any wrong doing. That was the case of some of the subscription fire services in the 80's -- Legal yes.

Even the DCFD recognizes that in the event you respond to an emergency in the city and it is found to be in the county we can take action.

But all of that aside and just an underpinning of the legal right or wrong is the moral obligation to act and save someones property from suffering destruction that is how we all began to begin with...

I can live with throwing away 22 years in the Career fire service on my belief that what I did was right and justified, so in the case of that Captain yes he was right(legally) but he was OH so wrong Morally

[Loo for life]

You are gonna make a helluva Comapny Officer (big boy) one day as u did a Technician!! How r the recruits doing?:eek:

[Vollies Suck]

Originally posted by Loo for life
But all of that aside and just an underpinning of the legal right or wrong is the moral obligation to act and save someones property from suffering destruction that is how we all began to begin with...I can live with throwing away 22 years in the Career fire service on my belief that what I did was right and justified, so in the case of that Captain yes he was right(legally) but he was OH so wrong Morally

What about this Captain's moral obligation to be available to serve the people who pay his salary? What about his moral obligation to follow the policies and obey the lawful orders of his superiors? What about his moral obligation not to place his men in harm's way without proper authorization?

Suppose they had disregarded their agency's rules and policies, and responded to this fire? And suppose a citizen of their town died because these firefighters were not available to respond?

Or suppose one of Niles' firefighters had been killed or injured in this unauthorized -- indeed prohibited -- free-lance action? What then? Would that man or his family be eligible for worker's compensation coverage or LOD death survivor benefits, given that he was not injured or killed on the job?

Would you really risk throwing away your career, and possibly your pension, in this circumstance? Remember, this was a structure fire, with no life at risk. The possessions of a citizen outside your town mean more to you than your ability to support yourself and your family??? Do you have a wife and kids? What do they think about that?

Look, we need to think with our heads and not our hearts about this incident. I share your view that something should have been done about this fire, other than watch it burn. I think we can all agree that this was an embarrassing incident, and that the Niles FD should have responded to it. But the responsibility for their failure to respond lies not with the firefighters on the scene, but with the politicians who evidently failed to create a mutual aid agreement. The lesson here is that every jurisdiction should have in place a standing and detailed mutual aid agreement, one that will permit us to help anyone under the aegis and authority of our employers.

[Lt.Dan]

Loo-
Thanks for the compliment. I believe you are thinking I am someone else. Pm me and I will fill you in.

[regs1]

Loo for life:

Legal issues often have no relationship to moral issues:

While those in charge of the companies who responded choose the correct legal way, they probably choose the poorly on the moral side. [Happens more often than people think, try being on a medical local, doing nothing, and then have a report of a house fire, - people trap, and then look out the window and see the smoke, --- cost --- time off, and Capt. for life - charge abandoning a patient who was already under a on scene doctors control]

If the officer responded and fought the fire, while morally correct, he probably be looking for a new job, or at least be a captain for life.

quote:

"I can live with throwing away 22 years in the Career fire service on my belief that what I did was right and justified"-

give me a answer a few years after you make that decision, and lets see if that was the correct decision

Is there a simple answer, depends on whose side you on.

In this issue, only the Niles officers have the correct answer, I hope those on the political side solves this issue from this point on.

[Loo for life]

Regs1, Capt it is a non decision for me I would act on my beliefs and suffer the consequences... I have done it before and it would be why I am a charter member of the "DCFD Bad Boy Society". So I can't relate to the Niles Captain in that sense.

VS, Let's get this straight the only moral obligation is one emergency at a time, he was dispatched by his jurisdiction, he apparently took the time to ensure no lives were endangered... So what the hell was the problem with using one maybe two fricking lines to darken the fire down.. U worry too much about the who is paying my salary issue that city has an agreement with other FD's so they could provide cover up coverage while they did there frickin JOB......

I have a wife and 2 kids and yes my beliefs are worth more to me than a fucking JOB, which in fact are the same ones I pass on to my teenage son and daughter and are the same ones that allow me to freely and comforatably make these statements. I have done the fast food biz, dug ditches I much rather like the current arraingement better but, I will always put my beliefs and moral obligations ahead of money.

Those things you outlined are not moral obligations they are job obligations!! MORAL obligations are based off of your beliefs and values and as for his men they will be following his direction so they will not suffer under most legal challenges as in the military as long as they were following his orders they will be protected.

Suppose they were on an accident right at the city line and someone died farther in town. Paaalease don't get me in the what if program I don't compare my apples to my oranges, we could do that all day long..

I love being a Big City fireman, I love the money I make, I love the job probably more than anything else other than my family but I do not comprimise on my CORE beliefs and values, never, nada, nope.

So you know I have been a Junior fireman, probie fireman(x3), career/volly fireman and an officer up through and including much to your chagrin a Fire Chief of a surburban volunteer fire department... for over 26 years and a career fire officer for over 14, so I know of which I believe and and speak.

Our opinions may never match on this one because me thinks our beliefs and backgrounds are of two seperate lights!!

Have a nice day:cool:

[SouthsideLadderMan]

Loo, well said. You are one of the few people I know in the career fire service who puts your duties as a Firefighter above the fact that you may or mat not be getting paid for it. True dedication is what it's all about. If I ever get downtown...I would hope to have an officer with those kinds of beliefs, morals and dedication to the job.

Regs, I had no Idea you were a Captain. I got the impression you were relatively new to DCFD.

[regs1]

Loo:

I made my decision, did my time, will I make the same decision again based upon the facts at the time yes. This type of decision is personnel, and based upon events that are occurring at the moment. The Niles officer made his, he has to live with it. I refuse to condemn him based upon a newspaper story.

I commend you to make a decision based on a moral issue, but be careful where you draw the line, this might come back to end a career. Enough said on this issue,

CW25Truck11

I do not know where you received your information, have over 25 years on the job, over 7 as a captain.

[PierceEngine8]

I have followed this thread with interest for some time, and finally feel compelled to speak. Loo, you said a mouthful! Unfortunately, the evil demon of "political correctness" seems to have filtered into the fire service. I have been a VOLUNTEER (and damn proud of it) firefighter / fire officer for over 20 years in one of the poorest counties in the state. Luckily, the County looks after us somewhat financially, so with that and fundraising we are able to ensure that our apparatus and equipment are fairly modern and capable of doing the job. Still, I know that us poor ol' hick town firefighters are usually looked down upon by some, but I gotta tell you, this whole situation would never have occurred in the area in which I live. There is a lot to be said about rural areas, where everyone knows, or knows of, everyone else; where volunteer firefighters still wash cars and have carnivals and bingo and other events to buy their equipment; and where good ol' horse sense rules the day. That being said, I simply cannot fathom responding to a house fire, only to arrive and find it is outside of our first due, and telling old Miss Mable, "Gosh, I'm sorry but we can't do anything to save your home. I know your grandfather built it and you've lived here your whole life but I'm sorry. But don't you worry, Miss Mable, we will just sit here with an engine and two tankers and wait till first due arrives and then we'll commence to firefightin'." Does this make any sense? At all?? The demagraphics may be different from place to place but the principle is the same. I would much rather risk discipline or go to court over taking action than not. taking action. What ever happened to "duty to act"? Where I'm from, if you are first due or 7th due at a call, if you arrive on scene first, you begin operations, be it a search, rescue, fight a fire, or whatever, you do it!! When the first due company arrives, command can be turned over to them, but we would NEVER "refuse" to help someone in need. It is what the fire service is here for; to help others! Vollies Suck, this part is for you. You do make some good points, but they are drowned out by your venomous rhetoric against volunteers. It is obvious by your words that you are are a firefighter because you are paid to do it, it's your paid job, follow the rules, stamp out those ineffective volunteer scums, do what your salary payers say, and the hell with the rest. That "If someone dies or their house burns down out of my area, oh well, should have had a friggin' formal agreement" attitude is pitiful. But, if that's the way you like it, then fine! I sincerely hope you are never confronted with that situation. But let me tell you this: VOLUNTEERS are in it to help their neighbors. They receive no pay, and do it in addition to their regular jobs. It takes a lot more dedication to volunteer your time for a good cause for free than to get paid for it. Now, VS, to give the devil (did I say that?) his due, I will agree the volunteer fire service can't always guarantee a full 6 man engine crew response (that's what mutual aid is for), but often they can turn out many, many more. The volunteer companies in my area also have minimum training requirements. Firefighting, training, fund raising, free time, family and a job... VS, are YOU, in your heart, dedicated enough to do that, or is it, as I suspect, just a paycheck for you? By the way, I have never heard of a volunteer firefighter going on strike and not showing up to fight fires (ie., help people in need) because they want a new union contract that will pay them more or give them better benefits. Maybe you would be as insulted if I posted under "IAFF Sucks" as I am by you posting under "Vollies Suck". We are all professional firefighters doing a job, whether we are paid or not. Think about it....

[Vollies Suck]

Originally posted by PierceEngine8
I have followed this thread with interest for some time, and finally feel compelled to speak...Vollies Suck, this part is for you. You do make some good points, but they are drowned out by your venomous rhetoric against volunteers. It is obvious by your words that you are are a firefighter because you are paid to do it, it's your paid job, follow the rules, stamp out those ineffective volunteer scums, do what your salary payers say, and the hell with the rest. That "If someone dies or their house burns down out of my area, oh well, should have had a friggin' formal agreement" attitude is pitiful. But, if that's the way you like it, then fine! I sincerely hope you are never confronted with that situation. But let me tell you this: VOLUNTEERS are in it to help their neighbors. They receive no pay, and do it in addition to their regular jobs. It takes a lot more dedication to volunteer your time for a good cause for free than to get paid for it. Now, VS, to give the devil (did I say that?) his due, I will agree the volunteer fire service can't always guarantee a full 6 man engine crew response (that's what mutual aid is for), but often they can turn out many, many more. The volunteer companies in my area also have minimum training requirements. Firefighting, training, fund raising, free time, family and a job... VS, are YOU, in your heart, dedicated enough to do that, or is it, as I suspect, just a paycheck for you? By the way, I have never heard of a volunteer firefighter going on strike and not showing up to fight fires (ie., help people in need) because they want a new union contract that will pay them more or give them better benefits. Maybe you would be as insulted if I posted under "IAFF Sucks" as I am by you posting under "Vollies Suck". We are all professional firefighters doing a job, whether we are paid or not. Think about it....

Oh, well, here we go again. This thread was not about volunteer vs. real (career) fire departments until you decided to take it in that direction. Just remember that.

Regarding my attitude about you vollies, you obviously haven't read my posts...what a surprise.

Regarding your statements about me and why I do my job, and your speculation about how dedicated I really am...you don't know me, you don't know what motivates me, and if you think any real (career) firefighter works just for money, then you really know nothing about the fire service at all. Again, what a surprise, that a vollie wannabe knows nothing about the fire service. Now you know why we real (career) firefighters laugh when you clowns call yourselves "professionals".

Regarding your statements about the IAFF, you and other vollie wannabes ought to thank God every day for the IAFF, for when my union fights for better safety standards and LOD death benefits and better building standards you benefit too. Oh, and can you name a real (career) fire department that has gone on strike in recent years, or are you just an anti-union asshole from an anti-union state who wants to sling a little mud? (Besides, you wackos fail to respond to calls all the time because of a lack of manning or needing a driver, etc. Guess it's okay for you to fail to help people because your hearts are in the right place? For you to talk about real (career) firefighters not helping people, given the fire loss rates in areas served by you goofs, is truly funny.)

And about your desperate need to think of yourself as equal to me and my brothers? Listen, stupid, if you were really my equal -- just as good as me except willing to work for free -- why would I or any other real (career) firefighter have a job? Why wouldn't the mayor of the city where I work get rid of me and delegate my job to you? You can tattoo the "unpaid professional" label on your forehead for all I care, but that doesn't make it true. Anybody with a brain understands the difference between real (career) firefighters and vollie wannabes, and your statements are a real good argument for IQ and drug tests as a membership requirement in VFDs.

Finally, regarding the original theme of this thread: If people look down on you and your fellow vollie wannabes, it's nonsense like your post that could be the reason. In a VFD you can do whatever you want, but in a real (career) FD the deal is that you are paid by the people where you work to do what they tell you to do, and to obey the rules and policies of your FD. If you work for a living, would you tell your boss that you are going to do whatever you want, regardless of what he tells you to do? You don't just do whatever you feel like doing, especially if it violates the direct orders of the people you owe your allegiance to. The fact that you can't understand the concept of duty to the people you serve is more proof -- if any were needed -- that you are not a professional in any sense of the word.

[Chief601]

I think the big point that has been missing on this thread is not so much that the Niles FD did nothing it was that they sat and watched. It's one thing to obey your civil orders and not provide government funds, (via fire protection), to another taxing entity. Glad to see they have that worked out. In my opinion it was the fact that the guys watched from their trucks. There were many options available, other than watching. They could have asked dispatch to have someone authorize their attack, they could have atleast dumped one tank of water from the outside, or they could have simply not even stopped and went back to quarters. Sitting and watching is rubbing salt in the wound. That homeowner didn't care who was there, they just wanted help. I don't care where you are from or what your rules and regs are, I don't believe any officer from TWD would not have taken action and asked for forgiveness later.

[Vollies Suck]

Originally posted by Chief601
I think the big point that has been missing on this thread is not so much that the Niles FD did nothing it was that they sat and watched....Sitting and watching is rubbing salt in the wound.

I agree 100% with this comment, and have said so in previous posts. I also agree they had other options, such as requesting permission through chain of command to respond. (Perhaps they did do that and were refused?)

[snizzledanizzle]

In regard to standing by and simply watching the structure burn:

"It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission."

Put the fire out now, and deal with the political ramifications later. This is not a Paid Vs. Volunteer issue. It's a moral and ethical issue.

[Vollies Suck]

Originally posted by VolliesSuck
I am a troll. I hate volunteers. I am mad at the world because I have a bad family homelife. My wife left me to have sexual relations with 3 volunteer firemen, evidently they had larger penises than I. I suffer from small dick syndrome, and I can't take the fact that other people have thoughts that go against mine. I am somewhat bipolar, and occasionally forget to take my Lithium before posting on the Watchdesk. Please accept my apologies for being an anonymous pansy waste of cum

Gee, I'm sorry to hear that things in your life are so bad. On top of all that, you have no imagination as well. What a shame.

[Axesr4choppin]

Vollies Suck I don't always agree with what you have to say but I respect your opinions on this forum and your dedication to the fire service in general. I have read many of your posts and see that you have a good analytical mind and are definately not afraid to express yourself. And contrary to what some think I realize you don't hate volunteer firefighters you just dislike the inconsistancies of the volunteer system and it's inherent flaws, which I as a volunteer firefighter can understand. Now not trying to tick anyone off or offend you or anyone else I have to ask you: what would you have done if you were in charge of the situation that has been hashed out on this thread for so long? Please, no offence or backbiting meant I am just curious. I think I can infer from your posts what you might have done but I just really want to know how you would have handled it. Thanks!

[Vollies Suck]

Originally posted by Axesr4choppin
Vollies Suck I don't always agree with what you have to say but I respect your opinions on this forum and your dedication to the fire service in general. I have read many of your posts and see that you have a good analytical mind and are definately not afraid to express yourself. And contrary to what some think I realize you don't hate volunteer firefighters you just dislike the inconsistancies of the volunteer system and it's inherent flaws, which I as a volunteer firefighter can understand. Now not trying to tick anyone off or offend you or anyone else I have to ask you: what would you have done if you were in charge of the situation that has been hashed out on this thread for so long? Please, no offence or backbiting meant I am just curious. I think I can infer from your posts what you might have done but I just really want to know how you would have handled it. Thanks!

You're not ticking me off or offending me at all. You've asked a very good question, one that I have not yet addressed. I've thought about it a lot and I really do not know what I would do. That's the most honest answer I can give you. My FD has mutual aid agreements in place with neighboring jurisdictions so I would never face the situation.

I'm certain that I would inform my dispatch center of the location of the fire and ask permission from my superiors to respond. I would hope they would be smart enough to realize the PR nightmare that would ensue if they denied permission. But if permission to respond is refused? I honestly don't know.

I would like to think that I would think and act like a firefighter first and a bureaucrat second, and that I would attack the fire and worry about the consequences later. But here's the problem: For a professional firefighter, especially one of my generation, the para-military structure of the fire service is very important. There is a strong inclination to do what you are told, and more importantly, not to defy the lawful orders of a superior. That's why I can see both sides of this issue, and why I refuse to jump on the "They were wrong" bandwagon. There is no right or wrong here, good arguments can be made on either side, and none of us really knows what he would do unless he was placed in that situation.

None of us would ever want to be in the position those guys were in, and that's why it's important to have mutual aid agreements in place. As I have said all along on this thread, the real bad guys in this story are the politicians of the two jurisdictions.

Thanks for your kind words.

[ohfrmn89]

fortunately our dept has mutual aid agreements with our neighboring depts too. several years ago we were dispatched to a structure fire and arrived only to find out it was in the city's jurisdiction not ours. we immediately went to work and had the city dispatched also. by the time they showed up we had the fire knocked down. we still stayed on the scene and city units did too and helped with cleanup and overhaul. unfortunately the city one time was dispatched to a structure fire and we were dispatched also to the same area. we arrived to find a fully involved condo unit with reports of people trapped in our response area with a city pumper sitting at the bottom of the hill standing by watching. we waved them in to respond with us but they left the scene after we arrived. oh well. the city has different views about responding to calls out of there area on mutual aid but that is being worked on.

[Vollies Suck]

Originally posted by ohfrmn89
fortunately our dept has mutual aid agreements with our neighboring depts too. several years ago we were dispatched to a structure fire and arrived only to find out it was in the city's jurisdiction not ours. we immediately went to work and had the city dispatched also. by the time they showed up we had the fire knocked down. we still stayed on the scene and city units did too and helped with cleanup and overhaul. unfortunately the city one time was dispatched to a structure fire and we were dispatched also to the same area. we arrived to find a fully involved condo unit with reports of people trapped in our response area with a city pumper sitting at the bottom of the hill standing by watching. we waved them in to respond with us but they left the scene after we arrived. oh well. the city has different views about responding to calls out of there area on mutual aid but that is being worked on.

If you have a mutual aid agreement in place, and firefighters from another jurisdiction refused to help after you waved them in, I think that is disgraceful. I could never do something like that, and I think it is absolutely wrong.

[regs1]

VS:

While I disagree with the actions of the cities fire companies, and I have no idea on the mutual aid agreement, I believe that in this case the cities communications center must first dispatch them after receiving permission from someone higher up in the food chain.

The cities fire officer probably through some sop could not respond.

[ohfrmn89]

we unfortunately don't have any mutual aid agreement with the city dept. honestly i don't think anyone in the county does. if it's outside the city limits i don't think they'll go to work. alot of the county chiefs are working with agreements with the city chiefs trying to iron things out for everybody involved. hell the city will hardly ask for mutual aid from the county depts especially for ems transports when they don't have any of their own transport units available (which is quite often unfortunately). all in all though the complex was saved party to the affect of some very aggressive firefighting from first in units and immediately calling for help from other depts.

[BCFD in Philly]

Got this in an e-mail. Unable to verify the authenticity of the photo or the caption.

Did a Google search for Casstown and came up with Casstown, Ohio.

Anyone have any additional information on this incident?

[Ghetto FF]

BCFD in Philly,


I received this picture in a e-mail a long time back. My guess is this is a training exercise and someone made a joke out of it.

[aardvark]

Ahhh, A great perciever of the obvious...........

[NBVFD41604]

Whether or not it was in their city limits, if the state patrol dispatched and called for their engine crews,then they respond in action, not motionless.

[fyrdog]

These guys have no business calling themselves Firefighters. The whole damn bunch of them should be kicked out of the Fire Dept. I remember reading somewhere (OH YEAH, ROOKIE SCHOOL) that our jobs were to SAVE LIVES AND PROPERTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. If you cant do that because it's not your response area then you have no business being on the job, plain and simple.
Even if there was no mutual aid system in place that is no excuse for not taking action. You do the job and worry about the petty crap of "it aint our response area" later.

[stroker]

I am making a copy of it as we (well as I type this). I think of my ex. This is a wonderful picture. On a seriouse note. They may have insurance regulations that may have prohibited them from taking action. If one of them would have been injured or killed. The family may have suffered. I personally would have gone in, as would of probably 90% of you would have. Vollies suck, dude get help. Lifes too short to be that angry. Stay Safe brothers and sisters. :D :confused:

[hog]

them firefighters were at a training i was told................as far as vollies suck.......dude needs to get a life....he is jealous of his brother firefighters..........what am i ??? i am an unpaid PROFESSIONAL..........

[Vollies Suck]

them firefighters were at a training i was told................as far as vollies suck.......dude needs to get a life....he is jealous of his brother firefighters..........what am i ??? i am an unpaid PROFESSIONAL..........

"Unpaid professional"??? What you are is a semi-literate nitwit who likes to dress up and play fireman, and who, unable to provoke me via your idiotic Private Messages, is now attempting to take shots at me in public.

You say I am "jealous" of my brother firefighters. But my brother firefighters are the other real (career) firefighters with whom I work. I am not jealous of them in the slightest, for we are indeed brothers. You are not, never will be, and indeed never could be my brother.

If by using the phrase "brother firefighters" you were thinking of yourself and others of your ilk, trying to elevate yourself to that plane, then what is it exactly that you have that you think I covet? What do you have that I could possibly want? I assure you the answer is "nothing".

From your first Private Message to me, I imagined you to be the kind of volly who, when asked what he does for a living, tells people first that he is a fireman. Your silly, oxymoronic claim to be an "unpaid professional" confirms that beyond all doubt.

[hog]

unpaid professional is what most firefighters are vollies....too bad you won`t get on post your name and dept because of you being a coward........i bet your fellow firefighters would think of you as an asshole for the way you think

[hog]

you must really have a problem with your brother firefighters....i wonder if they know what kind of asshole coward you are? come on be a big boy and post your name and dept or are you afraid?

[Vollies Suck]

You, who are barely literate and saddled with obvious personality problems, are not the arbiter of courage on the Watchdesk. Revealing one's identity is not required as a condition of posting, and doing so, or failing to do so, indicates nothing about one's courage or character or backbone. Challenging someone to reveal his identity is a mark of desperation on the part of those who cannot win a debate, and have no other cards to play.

[hog]

no it is not....but if you run your mouth and talk down on folks you should at least have the balls to say who you are.......one thing you lack

[hog]

and playing cards....that is about all you do except try and play fireman

[Tom Horne]

For someone who writes so eloquently, it's a shame that you are so wrong. That officer's first obligation is to the people who pay his salary, namely the citizens of his town. Whether you like it or not, a professional Fire Department is run according to rules and regulations, and anytime you decide deliberately to break one of them, you must be aware of the possible consequences. You want him to break the rules and respond outside his jurisdiction, but suppose, in doing so, one of his men is crippled or killed, or one of the citizens who pays his salary is killed or loses his home while he is courageously breaking the rules?

FYI, the original news article said there was no one in the house. Are you a lawyer? How do you arrive at the conclusion that these firefighters would have been charged with "criminally negligent homicide"? Cite your source for that statute please?

I think he would be charged with disobeying an order, and yes, I think he could be fired. Those of you who look down your noses at those of us who do this "for money" need to ask yourselves if you would be willing to risk your livelihood this way.

If you want to blame somebody for this admittedly embarrassing story, blame the local politicians who have failed to hammer out a Mutual Aid agreement.

Even as one of the suckies I have to agree with what you are saying. Recall that the USFA initially denied death benefits to a FF in Florida who was working an incident he encountered out of jurisdiction. That would apply even to volunteers. Only after it was pointed out that Florida law required him to act did the feds reverse their position.

Let me use a somewhat more petty example. A town I worked for in Northern California provided fire service but not animal control. The county government provided animal control but they were not available anywhere near as quickly. An animal control call came in involving a cat entangled in the serpentine belts of a truck. The captain decided to respond to the call as the animals screams and children s' anguished cries could be heard over the telephone. He lost three days of work because the city manager suspended him for direct disobedience of policy that city personnel would not perform animal rescue work. When there is a political impasse over who should pay and how much they should pay for a service the employees are often caught in the middle.

As for the idea of charging the niles FFs with criminally negligent homicide it seams that someone never took, or slept through, their fire service law class. The "Doctrine of Rescue" is black letter law in all fifty states. It is summarized in the statement that "No one may be required to rescue another from their own folly." In the absence of a specific obligation, in law, to act you cannot be brought before the bar for not acting. Another legal principal that applies is the generalized duty theory which is usually summarized as "a duty to all is a duty to none." Government does not owe a duty to any individual citizen to protect them from harm until it undertakes to do so in a specific instance. Having undertaken to help you must act competently but if you never act you cannot be successfully sued. In much of the rural areas of this country there is no effective structural fire protection. When a remote farm or ranch building burns down there is no one to sue. The county government in who's boundary the fire occurs is judgment proof unless it had a role in causing the fire. The county government does not have to provide fire protection of any kind unless state law obligates it to do so. Look at it this way. If I could be charged with criminally negligent homicide for failing to rescue someone from a fire outside my jurisdiction then when off duty in my own car I would have to stop and attempt rescue of the entrapped occupants of a well involved building without back up, a hose line to cover the stairway, or even protective equipment. That idea is just loony toons. Career or volunteer your insurance, benefits, and certifications are tied to your jurisdiction. Outside of Maryland and the council of governments mutual aid area I'm not an EMT or a firefighter. If I'm injured or killed my family would receive nothing but welfare and social security death benefits. So if I do act it is as a private citizen with no greater obligation to the victims then any other citizen.
--
Tom Horne

[RuralFire]

You say I am "jealous" of my brother firefighters. But my brother firefighters are the other real (career) firefighters with whom I work. I am not jealous of them in the slightest, for we are indeed brothers. You are not, never will be, and indeed never could be my brother.

If by using the phrase "brother firefighters" you were thinking of yourself and others of your ilk, trying to elevate yourself to that plane, then what is it exactly that you have that you think I covet? What do you have that I could possibly want? I assure you the answer is "nothing".


My God, V.S., have you ever got some issues.

Have you ever thought to actually compare the number of volunteer firefighters in North America to the number of career firefighters ? If you *had* ever done this, you'd have noticed the number is close to 5 volunteer FF's for every career FF.

Have you ever wondered *why* this is ? Do you have the faintest concept of what it costs to create a fire department, including apparatus, crew, training, etc, etc ?

How would you pay for that with a tax base in a town of only 1000 people ? What if the closest full time department was over an *HOUR* away ?

Perhaps you'll tell me that no fire department is better than a volunteer one ? Perhaps you think that the state should pay for a full time department for each and every hamlet, village, town and city in the country ?

Lemme ask ya, V.S.: Is the water in your hose any wetter than that of a volunteer's ? Does the fire "magically" go out when *you* arrive on scene, but "magically" spread when a volly gets there ?

You rant on and on about how much you despise volunteers in some of your posts, how they're not "real" fire fighters, nor are they "brothers", yet you've never stopped to wonder why they out number the full-timers by such a staggering amount.

You may also want to consider that a career firefighter can pay the mortgage with their salary - a volunteer still has to hold down a job to put bread on the table for their families, *and* be able to drop that and everything else when the pagers go off to do their duty to the citizens they're sworn to protect.

You might give some thought to the fact that *anyone* who dedicates themselves to going *into* a situation where most people are running *out* of it, are all brothers. A firefighter who gives his or her life to saving others is a firefighter, period.

You've got a poor attitude for a FF. I'd be ashamed to share the same hall with you (And I'm sure a few of your "brothers" are, given the naive and ignorant drivel you've spewed)

[hog]

vollies suck is a loser.....he could never do what we do as vollies....never..if he don`t get paid he don`t train...

[RuralFire]

vollies suck is a loser.....he could never do what we do as vollies....never..if he don`t get paid he don`t train...

What bugs me is that he's obviously had a very traumatic experience with vollies, but he insists on painting them all with the same brush.

He says that vollie departments are being replaced with full time departments, but this will never be 100 % of the case in any of our life times for the simple fact that there isn't enough money in most townships and counties to pay for a full time department (and don't get me wrong: In a *perfect* world, every single citizen would be protected by a full time department).

His .sig file says "Volunteers - you get what you pay for", or something like that, but I find that ignorant: In our county, the tax payer pays for a volunteer department - they pay for the hall, the equipment and the volunteer pay (we're volunteers, but we get paid for the hours we respond to calls, as well as an honourarium per year).

I've seen him post that "vollies pick and choose which incidents they respond to" - I'd hate to see the community where a vollie crew actually refuses to answer a call - that's just plain wrong (of a FF who would knowingly choose to not answer) - In our community, there are many fine employers who are recognized because they make the commitment and sacrifice of making their employers available when the pagers go off. V.S. seems to dismiss all of this whith not only his moniker, but his attitude.

There was a thread where another gentleman put it quite succinctly: (I'm paraphrasing, here): We have *identical* responsibility as a full-time crew in that when we're called to a scene, we have to get a crew there, assess the situation, put the fire out and get our men and women back in one piece.

Do we train *as much as* a full time crew ? No. Do we have the same equipment as a full time crew ? Depends on the hall and the municipality's budget. Do we have the same experience as a full time crew ? That's a silly comparison: A full time crew covering New York City, for example, will obviously have more responses under their belt and different incident types that a crew that is covering smallsville, Idaho.

There's a good saying amongst volunteer departments: "We volunteer because your life depends on it". In our municipality, it would take 30 minutes *minimum* for the nearest full time crew to reach the core of our village and well over an hour to reach other parts of our coverage area. A firefighter, full time or volunteer, knows that minutes count. With five times the number of volunteer firefighters in North America, compared to full timers, we're simply not going to disappear - it's too much of a money issue for towns that just don't have the tax base to pay for a full time fire crew. V.S. needs to grow up and realize that it takes guts to be a FF, whether it's full time or vollie. While there may well be a lesser standard in hiring vollies, in comparison to full timers, when the sh** hits the fan, the wheat is separated from the chaff when actually on a serious fire scene. He needs to do some serious self-educating for what Volunteer firefighters do for both of our great countries.

[1014engine]

You might give some thought to the fact that *anyone* who dedicates themselves to going *into* a situation where most people are running *out* of it, are all brothers. A firefighter who gives his or her life to saving others is a firefighter, period.
Well said. I started as a vollie and I consider myself fortunate to have a career where I get paid for doing a job I love.

I see too many people lately, coming on this job to do no more than collect a paycheck. They have little enthusiasm and certainly no burning (unintentional pun) desire to be firefighters. Many of them were hired with no thought given to their physical ability or lack thereof, and in many cases with lower written test scores than we have ever accepted in the past.

In the darkness of a burning building, I can't tell you the race, religion, ethnicity or career/volunteer status of the firefighter next to me. How could I fault someone who is right next to me, doing the job, for not getting a paycheck when there are "employees" who either can't or won't? That is the true brotherhood. :)

[Fireduck]

Well said!!!!! :)

[hog]

1014engine .....well said my friend

[Vollies Suck]

Rural Fire, the reason vollie wannabes outnumber real (career) firefighters is simple: politicians dislike raising taxes, and as long as they can pretend that wannabes are doing the same job as real (career) firefighters they can avoid the decision to convert from wannabe (volunteer) to real (career) fire protection and EMS. Don't think for a minute that your superior numbers mean that you deliver superior performance.

Incidentally, while most Fire Departments in the USA are indeed volunteer, you conveniently forget to mention that most American citizens are protected by real (career) firefighters. That's because you vollies are usually found only in sparsely populated areas. And I have never said that everybody in the USA should be protected only by professional firefighters; but I have said that if you wannabes are going to claim to be my equals, you should be able to do everything a real (career) Fire Department does, including guarantee fully staffed units on the street immediately 24/7/365. If you can't do that, then don't pretend to be equivalent to a real (career) Fire Department.

FYI, in the jurisdiction where I live, the vollies do indeed pick and choose which calls they answer. They are worthless, a disgrace to the concept of fire protection, yet they survive because of the cowardice of our local elected officials, who are afraid to stand up to them and demand that they comport themselves as a Fire Department.

You claim to be a "volunteer", but you also get paid for the hours you respond to calls, as well as an annual honorarium? What the hell does that mean? If you are being paid, you are no longer a volunteer.

I challenge you to cite any post where I have said I "despise" volunteers, as you claim. I have never said such a thing. My criticism has been directed at volunteer systems and their failings, foibles, and inefficiencies, NOT at the vollies themselves. (The only exception to this has been when vollies have attacked me personally; in such instances, I have responded in kind. For example, the perverted, sexually confused, and possibly closeted Hog has sent me numerous private messages accusing me of performing homosexual sex acts.)

While I do not despise you, as you falsely claim, I also do not consider you to be my equal, my equivalent, or my brother. Why is that such a problem for you? I have made fire protection my calling, my profession, my life's work; for you it is a hobby. Why is it necessary to insult my dedication, my training, my manhood, just because I do not think of you in the way you want me to think of you? Look at the Watchdesk pages for real (career) Fire Departments: do you see the men and women on those pages whining that they are just as good as vollies, or that they care just as much?

If your community approves of what you do, then be happy with that. But stop trying to equate yourself with me and my brothers: nobody who wears a uniform is going to buy it. (Both the chicken and the eagle have wings, but I doubt that the eagle thinks of the chicken as his brother.)

[Rogue22]

Well said, 1014engine (I have put your quote below.)

Personally, I have read over this thread and, while some good points were thrown about, I just have something to get off my chest:

Vollies Suck...you seem to be the hot person of this thread, so let me join the masses. First off, I will agree with you on that, unfortunately, there are some volunteers who pick & choose which calls they want to answer. Whatever they're reasons, it's their choice. Careers don't have that choice- ok, that's obvious.

However, here are 3 things I needed to comment on:

1) You say you don't "despise" volunteers, yet your name (Vollies Suck) says it all.

2) Ok, so you may not "despise" volunteers, but you won't consider us your brothers. Well, with your attitude of ignorance, lack of tact and unacceptance of others who do the same job you do in the fire department...I'd be ashamed to be your "brother." (Don't hide behind "No one's perfect", either, because you're not even trying to qualify as a leader.)

3) "Revealing one's identity is not required as a condition of posting, and doing so, or failing to do so, indicates nothing about one's courage or character or backbone." Well, no, but it does show that you have the BALLS enough to stand up for yourself & stand behind your words by saying "This is who I am, and what I believe." Guess you lost your balls when you started getting paid.

In the darkness of a burning building, I can't tell you the race, religion, ethnicity or career/volunteer status of the firefighter next to me. How could I fault someone who is right next to me, doing the job, for not getting a paycheck when there are "employees" who either can't or won't? That is the true brotherhood. :)

[Vollies Suck]

Rogue22, you are perfect example of the vollie attitude displayed on this and other pages. I am supposed to take seriously the musings of someone who calls himself "virgin killer"???

[roofhook]

While I do not despise you, as you falsely claim, I also do not consider you to be my equal, my equivalent, or my brother. Why is that such a problem for you? I have made fire protection my calling, my profession, my life's work; for you it is a hobby. Why is it necessary to insult my dedication, my training, my manhood, just because I do not think of you in the way you want me to think of you? Look at the Watchdesk pages for real (career) Fire Departments: do you see the men and women on those pages whining that they are just as good as vollies, or that they care just as much?

I see you have the "Paid mans syndrome"....I'm better because I get a paycheck...I'm a profesional....This is my job...seen it a million times.
Dude get off your high horse, if the fire service is going to advance, paid and volunteer have to work togather.
I have been paid and volunteer, I have worked with great paid men and great volunteers. I have also worked with paid and volunteers that should have never been allowed to set foot in a fire station.
Because I volunteer now (FD membership is a requirement for my job as a Fire Academy Instructor) does that mean I am not your equal?
Because I instruct recruit classes of future paid firefighters, does that mean that they are automatically better than me?
Lets measure "professionalism" by the requirements set forth in the NFPA Standard for Professional Firefighter instead of who recieves a paycheck.
No one said the volunteer system is a pefect one...but instead of knocking the system, why don't you make good solid educated recommendations to improve the system.

[Vollies Suck]

I see you have the "Paid mans syndrome".

Also called a "professional attitude" or "professional outlook".

[Vollies Suck]

Because I volunteer now (FD membership is a requirement for my job as a Fire Academy Instructor) does that mean I am not your equal?


Yes, exactly.

[Vollies Suck]

Because I instruct recruit classes of future paid firefighters, does that mean that they are automatically better than me?

Yes it does. They have chosen this ancient and honorable calling for their life's work. To them, this is a profession, not a hobby. They will serve the public every day, risking their safety, damaging their health, and shortening their lives, most likely for wages that are far lower than those earned by truck drivers, painters, plumbers, and other skilled tradesmen.

They will be on duty, in their fire stations, on nights, weekends, and holidays, not sitting at home with a pager or listening for a station siren. They will miss Little League games, birthday parties, Thanksgiving dinners. They will take every single call they are dispatched on. They will answer to the public who pays their salaries and to the elected officials who oversee them. They will do all these things, and many more, because they are professionals. And yes, that will make them "better" firefighters than almost any volunteer fireman.

BTW, your use of the term "paid men" is a perjorative, akin to my calling you a "squirrel". It is indicative of the attitude many of you vollies have toward real (career) firefighters, and belies your silly claim to be my "brother".

Finally, I would suggest that you and the other recent posters on this thread have "volunteer fireman" syndrome: "Gee, I'm just as good as those paid men"..."We do everything paid men do"..."The only difference between us is a paycheck"...etc., etc., yada, yada, yada.

Grow up and get over it. As I told Rural Fire this morning, if your community approves of what you do, then be happy with that. But stop trying to equate yourself with me and my brothers: nobody who wears a uniform is going to buy it. While both the chicken and the eagle have wings, I doubt that the eagle thinks of the chicken as his brother.

[roofhook]

Well let me understand..once a firefighter who receives compensation (a paycheck..which in your mind makes him better) decides to go into fire service instruction (and remains a firefighter..with out compensation) he automaticaly is less of a firefighter and no longer a brother...

I see how you avoid my statement about NFPA 1001 Standard for Firefighter Professional Qualifications...why is that?

As far as my statement about paid men..that is true, that is what you are.
I did not throw insults such as "paid maid" out there.
When a firefighter walks into my classroom or onto the drill field, I don't see paid or volunteer, I see people who can either do the job well or can't do it at all.

I never said I was better than you or wanted your respect...that I could really give a rats ass about.
Instead of sucking your own dick and telling everyone who is a volunteer that you are better then they are, why don't you provide some insight on how the volunteer fire service could improve.

[Vollies Suck]

Well let me understand..once a firefighter who receives compensation (a paycheck..which in your mind makes him better) decides to go into fire service instruction (and remains a firefighter..with out compensation) he automaticaly is less of a firefighter and no longer a brother...

I see how you avoid my statement about NFPA 1001 Standard for Firefighter Professional Qualifications...why is that?

As far as my statement about paid men..that is true, that is what you are.
I did not throw insults such as "paid maid" out there.
When a firefighter walks into my classroom or onto the drill field, I don't see paid or volunteer, I see people who can either do the job well or can't do it at all.

I never said I was better than you or wanted your respect...that I could really give a rats ass about.
Instead of sucking your own dick and telling everyone who is a volunteer that you are better then they are, why don't you provide some insight on how the volunteer fire service could improve.

You don't get it, do you? It's not the compensation or paycheck that makes the difference between career firefighters and volunteer firemen. It is the professionalism, the willingness to devote one's working life -- as opposed to one's recreational hours -- to the cause of public safety. When my FDNY brothers were going into the World Trade Center on the morning of September 11, 2001, someone shouted to them "How can you go up there?" One of the firefighters replied: "It's my job!" That, in a simple and eloquent nutshell, is the difference between us. Anybody who thinks the only difference between us is a paycheck simply does not understand what drives men to enter this profession. We do what we do because we are who we are. If you were like us you too would do what we do. But you are not, and so you don't.

I am not a "paid man", I am a firefighter. The term "paid man" is a slur and an insult, for it implies that being paid is the only difference between us. It belittles my profession. If you do not intend it to be an insult, and have not used it that way, then please be advised that many -- I daresay most -- firefighters take it that way, and if you are sensitive to that, I would suggest you not use the term. If you simply must add an adjective of some sort in front of the word "firefighter" when describing my brothers and me, I would suggest the words "career" or "professional".

What is it with you vollies and your fascination with homosexual -- or in your case, autoerotic -- fellatio? Your homeboy named hog regularly accuses me, via private message, of performing oral sex on other men, and now you make an even more bizarre reference. I've often thought that many of you have some sort of sexual identity or manhood problems -- hence the need to let the whole world know that you are real live firemen -- but this really is strange. Perhaps you and hog could enter therapy together and get a discounted rate.

If you read my many posts on the subject of how to improve the volunteer fire service, you will see that I have addressed the subject repeatedly. In a nutshell, if you can run a volunteer fire system just like a career system -- stations always manned, no short crews, no late responses or failures to respond, promotional tests for officers rather than elections, oversight by elected officials, etc. -- then I have no problem with the personnel in such a system being volunteer. But you and I know that vollie systems across the USA do not work that way.

Volunteer-type fire systems have too many inherent flaws. That's why whenever any growing community decides to change the way it provides fire protection, it is always from volunteer-type to career, not the other way around. Although you do save taxpayers money, the ultimate goal of a fire department is not to save money, but to save lives and property, and even the best-run volunteer system simply cannot do that as well as a career Fire Department. That is not a slam at vollies, but a simple and accurate observation about the inherent limits and flaws of a volunteer system.

[roofhook]

Since you don’t approve of my choice of words, let me change the statement to “beat yourself on the chest” or “stand under a lighted sign and telling everyone who is a volunteer that you are better than they are.”
While we are on word usage and you believe “paid man” is an insult, I will use “career” in referring to paid firefighters.
Truth be told, I would prefer the term firefighter without any designation to whether they are career or volunteer, but you find it necessary to segregate firefighters into 2 categories. You even go as far as to claim volunteer firefighters and volunteer fire departments are not “real”
Your quote

“ Incidentally, while most Fire Departments in the USA are indeed volunteer, you conveniently forget to mention that most American citizens are protected by real (career) firefighters. That's because you vollies are usually found only in sparsely populated areas. And I have never said that everybody in the USA should be protected only by professional firefighters; but I have said that if you wannabes are going to claim to be my equals, you should be able to do everything a real (career) Fire Department does, including guarantee fully staffed units on the street immediately 24/7/365. If you can't do that, then don't pretend to be equivalent to a real (career) Fire Department”

There are some other issues in your statement I will address later.
You have still failed to reply to my statement I posted earlier in regards to determining “professionalism” by NFPA 1001. You only want to refer to professionalism by career path.
The definition of professional
pro·fes·sion·al (pr -f sh -n l)
adj.
1.
a. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
b. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
3. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

n.
1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.

The definition in itself refers to both one who receives compensation or one who conforms to a standard. It’s like the Bible..2 people read the same passage and get a different message.

You stated, “You claim to be a "volunteer", but you also get paid for the hours you respond to calls, as well as an annual honorarium? What the hell does that mean? If you are being paid, you are no longer a volunteer.”
Does that mean that once you are no longer a volunteer, you are a brother and professional in your eyes and therefore an equal?

As far as the volunteer system, you stated “
If you read my many posts on the subject of how to improve the volunteer fire service, you will see that I have addressed the subject repeatedly. In a nutshell, if you can run a volunteer fire system just like a career system -- stations always manned, no short crews, no late responses or failures to respond, promotional tests for officers rather than elections, oversight by elected officials, etc. -- then I have no problem with the personnel in such a system being volunteer. But you and I know that vollie systems across the USA do not work that way.”
Although I will agree with your post, lets look at the career side for a minute
Stations always manned
Fire protection is better served by a staffed fire department, but how many career departments consider staffing 1 or 2 people per station or truck?
No short crews
See above
No late responses or failures to respond
How many times have trucks been put out of service by the crew for various reasons or how many times have trucks sat in the station after an alert waiting on a crew member to get out of bed because they slept thru the alert or were on the shitter?
Going in-service on the radio is not responding
Promotional tests for officers rather than elections,
this is a huge one for me..I am opposed to elected officers, but on the career side, have you ever been #1 or 2 on the promotional list and have someone from the middle or bottom promoted above you because of their sex or ethnic background?
Or yet having new firefighters be hired who couldn’t pass the entrance exam?
Oversight by elected officials
Sounds good until the elected officials start cutting staffing because in their eyes “all the fire department does is sit around waiting for an alarm”

Not to mention the career guys who are there just for the bennies, so they can run their insert side business here without having to pay high insurance premiums or retirement.
Or the AO who will not learn alternative running routes or study his first due area, much less practice operating his assigned apparatus to become proficient.

The career side of the fire service isn’t as perfect as you make it out to be.
Both sides have their pros and cons, benefits and liabilities to the communities they serve.
Stop judging people by their status and judge them by the job they do and how proficient they do it.

You said
"While both the chicken and the eagle have wings, I doubt that the eagle thinks of the chicken as his brother."
They are still fowl

[regs1]

I see that Vollies Suck is still on the Paid vs Volunteer debate; I wonder in how many threads and for how long this debate has been going on this time.

Well I put my newly minted nickels worth.

Volunteer systems, Been doing a small study on this, found out that volunteer fire departments operations varies from geographic location to location,

One of the first question I ask here is – when does a volunteer firemen become a professional, Is it when he receive compensation. Then you will have to include those who receive money on a paid-on-call system. How about using a retirement system, In New York State – the volunteers have a retirement home.
How about in the Wash DC metro area, some department have volunteer shift work, sleep at the fire house, and have educational requirements, are they now professional?

The question is where is the line?

The best answer I have is the main difference between the two systems is a legal definition. When a city, county, or geographic location is a paid or volunteer department,- it up to the local government to make that decision, not the firefighters.
I seen some system become paid due to problem within the volunteer system, also seen paid system become volunteer because of budget issues.

I think the major issue is the threat of using one against the other by the local government to advance their own agenda, that when the real paid vs. volunteer debate starts.
In this case everyone is a loser.

Bottom line, Fire Departments become paid or volunteer departments have paid members added because the local volunteer system was not working. Why, have to look at the local jurisdiction for the answer.

Except in two cases so far, paid departments do not become volunteer, and in both cases that the paid system became a volunteer system – it was a money budget problem within the city not what system is better for the community.

Roofhook

However I do take issue on this statement:

“Not to mention the career guys who are there just for the bennies, so they can run their insert side business here without having to pay high insurance premiums or retirement.”

This a bad blanket statement – The question I then ask is some cities/county pay crap to the firefighters, lets take Prince William County VA, a starting F/F makes around $37,600, the average house is around $200,000. Do the math, a starting F/F cannot buy the average house in PW county, thusly to do so must have a second career just to cover the basics.

[feartheturtle]

In a nutshell, if you can run a volunteer fire system just like a career system -- stations always manned, no short crews, no late responses or failures to respond, promotional tests for officers rather than elections, oversight by elected officials, etc. -- .

WOW! where do you live? I have never heard of a career system working that well...also, do your volunteers go through different training than you? because here, we all take the same classes and get the exact same certifications. If you think that career title makes you any better than a volunteer, that's great for you, but I seriously doubt the person whose home is going up in flames is going to care if the people there to help are volunteer or career.

[roofhook]

Regs1 as always I respect your opinion and allow me to clarify that my comment was not a blanket statement regarding all career firefighters and was not intended to group all career firefighters in that position, but you know as well as I do that there are some there for just that reason...I have worked with some and I am sure you may have too.

In my area, there are departments that start firefighters at 18,000 a year.
When questioned about the low start pay, the comment from council was "they work 24 for us and the other 48 they can get a second job, I see plenty of lawn care trucks at the station parking lot"


We the firefighters have become our own worse enemy

[Vollies Suck]

WOW! where do you live? I have never heard of a career system working that well...also, do your volunteers go through different training than you? because here, we all take the same classes and get the exact same certifications. If you think that career title makes you any better than a volunteer, that's great for you, but I seriously doubt the person whose home is going up in flames is going to care if the people there to help are volunteer or career.

You know, I really wish people who are going to try to harpoon me would at least read through some of my previous posts to try to learn a little bit about me first...they would look a lot less foolish that way.

feartheturtle, I work in a very large city in the USA, protected by a large 100% professional fire department. My Fire Department works exactly as I described in the post you referenced. If you have never heard of a career system working that well, I suggest you do a little traveling and visit some big cities and see how their Fire Departments operate.

I live in a county outside my city which is protected by volunteers, who generally do a very poor job, for reasons I have enumerated many, many times.

You are right in your observation that the person who needs help does not care if that help is career or volunteer. That begs the question of which system is better at helping the public. And I submit that a career or professional system is far superior to even the best run volunteer system.

Let me put it this way: If the citizens of the community where you live could have 100% professional fire protection for the same cost as volunteer fire protection, would they go for it? Of course! So what is the real reason we have volunteer fire protection? M-O-N-E-Y, that's why.

[Vollies Suck]

Roofhook, I have never claimed career fire departments are perfect. On the contrary, many of them grapple with serious problems all the time. But on the whole, they still constitute a far superior means of providing fire protection to the public.

I love how vollies constantly dredge up the dictionary definition of "professional" to support their claim to be "unpaid professionals". Tell you what: try to explain that to somebody outside the fire service and see what kind of look you get. "Hello, I'm pleased to meet you. What do I do? Well, I'm an professional firefighter...of course, I don't get paid for it, because I am an unpaid professional firefighter..."

I wonder: Would you take your child to an "unpaid professional" pediatrician? Would you have an "unpaid professional" auto mechanic work on your car? Would you want to hire an "unpaid professional" lawyer if you need legal advice? Do you see now why I say that your claim to be my equal insults my profession?

Yes, the eagle and the chicken are both fowl...but only to someone who is not a bird. The eagle and the chicken understand the differences between them, and the eagle does not think of the chicken as his brother.

[Truck23]

VS,
As just a curious observer, I have to admit that SOME of what you post does make sense but and I have read and reread your posts it seems to me that you really don't like vollies. You say you don't consider us(vollies) brothers...that's fine, I'm not losing sleep over it. I am friends with several Career guys and have had a chance to ride along with a Career department. The guys were awesome and they never treated me different because I am not "one" of them.

And Yes, I have been trying for years to get on a paid department I just have not been lucky enough yet. If and when I do, I certainly won't forget where I came from.

Enjoy your weekend

[Truck23]

VS,
Just one more thing I thought of, over the years I have been to too many firefighter funerals some career firefighters that have made the sacrifice. I went out of respect and because of the "brotherhood". If we(vollies) are not part of your brotherhood, would you attend a LODD funeral of a vollie??

[Vollies Suck]

Truck 23, thanks for your polite, well-written posts. To answer your questions, it is not vollies per se I dislike, but the way the vast majority of volunteer fire departments are configured and run. I also generally do not like some of the kinds of people those VFDs attract.

I will concede that anybody who volunteers anywhere -- school, hospital, library, VFD, etc. -- is giving of himself or herself for the good of the community. But only in volunteer fire departments do we find people who claim to be "just as good" as professionals who work in that field. Only in VFDs do people plaster signs or stickers all over their vehicles letting the whole world know that they are real live heroes. Only in VFDs do we see silly, immature trash talk and bullshit, and put-downs of other fire companies and their members. (Read some of the pages where vollies post on the Watchdesk.) Conduct and attitudes that would get you fired from a career fire department are common in many (certainly not all, maybe not even most, but many) volunteer fire companies. And no, I do not like people who exhibit those attitudes or engage in that conduct.

In the highly unlikely event of a LODD in a VFD in my area, and my FD was sending a delegation, certainly I would go.

[hog]

volunteer firefighters are just as good as paid........without a doubt....look at what all firefighters paid and vooly are doing in the Pittsburgh area with all the floods.....vollies suck you are just a fool....no other words describe you

[regs1]

Vollies Suck

Stating that paid are "better" than volunteers, or volunteers are "better" than paid is not logical.

paid departments if properly staffed, paid, educated is always a better system. But lets not forget that not every community can afford, or even need a paid department.

Some volunteer department are extreemly tied to the community, and if they have the right number of members , stations equipment, have the right education, and the the necessary dedication, they can compare to some paid departments that have been stripped of necessary manpower, equipment and necessary training.

However volunteer departments that often compare themselves with paid often have paid drivers or day time crews, or have surrounding departments that have paid crews responding to the same calls. so the question becomes how much of a volunteer department are they, and are they/or will they becoming a paid department.

Hog – comparing paid and volunteers systems on calls, incidents, or events, yes both work, but you must compare the two systems on basic why’s.

Why does Pittsburgh have a paid department, and not a volunteer, and better yet why does a nearby community to Pittsburgh have a volunteer system, and not a paid system. This is where you find your answer, not under dedication, education, or even number and type of responses that a department goes to.

[Vollies Suck]

volunteer firefighters are just as good as paid........without a doubt....

Then why do I have a job?

If volunteer firemen are just as good as professional firefighters, why are there any professional firefighters employed anywhere? Why wouldn't the taxpayers and their elected representatives just get rid of us, and turn over responsibility for fire protection to volunteers?

Even more to the point, how do you explain the fact that when a jurisdiction changes the way it provides fire protection, it is virtually always from volunteer to professional, and not the other way around?

Professional firefighters are always available, consistent in the way they work, and accountable to the taxpayers for their actions. They protect the vast majority of the population of the USA.

You are just as good as I am? It is you who are the fool for making such a patently idiotic assertion.

[Vollies Suck]

Regs 1, whether you realize it or not, you are agreeing with me and helping to bolster my case.

You write that "Some volunteer department are extreemly tied to the community, and if they have the right number of members , stations equipment, have the right education, and the the necessary dedication, they can compare to some paid departments that have been stripped of necessary manpower, equipment and necessary training." No kidding! But that's a lot of "ifs", and all too often volunteer fire companies lack the manpower to provide necessary coverage 24/7/365.

If volunteer firemen were really the equals of professional firefighters, or if they really could do exactly the same job and provide the same level of coverage, then no community in the USA would have a professional fire department. The only reason to use volunteers rather than professionals is to save money. And when that tax savings no longer compensates for the inherent deficiencies of a volunteer system, those jurisdictions convert to some form of a career or paid system.

[Rogue22]

Vollies Suck- It's going to hurt me to say this, but I truthfully respect your persistance. People may constantly put you down (myself included) but you just keep pushing with sarcastic banter & witty pride. (I, too, can be very persistant, if the situation calls for it.) So you get a thumbs up for that. :rolleyes:

However, you get two thumbs down for being a "shit starter." That's a pet peeve of mine, people who constantly runs their mouths, playing both sides. Yes, your side seems rather apparent, though, in that you've chosen career over volunteers (first clue being your screenname.) I don't get that you don't consider "volunteers" your brothers, though. When a career FF dies, I bet ya volunteers attend the funeral, pay their respects, and vice versa. When you're in a fire, and someone helps you out, you're thankful, yes? Would you still be thankful if you found out later the person that helped you out was a volunteer firefighter?

You once said, "I am not a "paid man", I am a firefighter. The term "paid man" is a slur and an insult, for it implies that being paid is the only difference between us. It belittles my profession." Ok, paid man doesn't work for you, but firefighter does. That's cool. So why don't you extend the same curiosity & respect towards unpaid men (& women) and don't belittle us, just because there's a volunteer before our title. Career & volunteer both do the same job: we are both firefighters. That's all that should matter.

Finally, since it's obvious you don't have the balls to post your name, why don't you at least end this career vs. volunteer debate (whether you were the start of it or not)? It's always going to be discussed, sure, but at least you can take the first step & end it, since it is you that has kept it running & provoking it to be fueled.

Both CAREER & VOLUNTEER, all aka FIREFIGHTERS: stay safe, see ya out there.

[Rogue22]

One more thing: You keep referring to the eagle & the chicken having differences, and the eagle not thinking of the chicken as his brother. Let me ask you this: how the FUCK do you know what an eagle is thinking? Are you an eagle? Since the obvious answer is NO, then there's no reason for you to speak for them...(and don't even say you weren't, because there have been 3 instances where you have.)

[gerry_58]

...I live in a county outside my city which is protected by volunteers, who generally do a very poor job, for reasons I have enumerated many, many times.....


So you should join your local VFD-- as many, many of your paid co-workers do--- and be part of the solution, instead of spending your time whining on TWD. But that would mean you'd have to leave that arrogant, mercenary attitude of yours behind, and be productive. A little more involvement in improving the system might do wonders on your bitterness and poor attitude. Two-hatters have my ultimate respect.

The difference between paid and vollie depts is simple. As a community grows, there is a threshold where the call volume is such that it cannot be handled by people answering from home, or by volunteer duty crews working a few days a month. This is generally the case in urban areas. At that point, when the demand are such that it requires full time personnel, then at least some paid f/f's are required. People have to eat, so you cannot expect them to volunteer for what has become a full time position. And I would someone who is collecting a paycheck for being a f/f to be more experienced and well-rounded than someone being a "part-timer" volunteer.

I've known worthless and excellent f/f's on both the paid and vollie side. Simply getting a paycheck does not suddenly make someone a shit hot f/f. There are professionals on both side of the fence. To declare that $$$ is the difference between to two is ridiculous.

[regs1]

Vollies Suck:

For the most part I do agree with you. And yes it is a lot of ifs, and yes some volunteer departments do meet the ifs and have the necessary manpower for a 24/7 coverage. Are they the norm –No, but they do exist, and because they meet the needs of the local government, they will stay a volunteer department no matter what.

However not all volunteer department are the same, nor is all paid systems better.
My pet peeve is the paid systems that staff their department engines and trucks with only one or two people. These departments show up and wait for other people to respond to the fire location. The do not meet the 2 in 2 out rule, so they sit outside and set up the “ICS system” while the place burns down.

I once said that the local government determines if the local community has a paid system or a volunteer system.
It is a fact that all paid systems start as a volunteer fire department. Because of many problems within the volunteer system, the local government decided to have some type of paid system. In some areas the volunteer department directly ask the local government to obtain paid personal to staff their firehouse. A good blanket statement is the local volunteer system was failing for some reason, and the local government fix was some type of a paid system.

But why waste time comparing a paid system to a volunteer system, it like comparing apples to oranges. They both come from trees, and that where it ends.

VS – you keep stating that local tax’s can pay for a paid system, often this is not the case, in many communities the local volunteer system will only run 100 to 1000 calls a year,
How does a local politician justify the expense? Local government rather hire more cops than hire a firefighter, they can justify that expense.
It is a sad fact that fire safety often takes a back seat to all other concerns in a community, the idea that a fire will always happen to the other guy is always there, besides if it only property damage and no one died, that why we have insurance for.

I will say one thing Firefighters if paid or volunteer are brothers, in many cases many volunteer department are staffed by paid firefighters who live in the local community, but work in a nearby paid city department.

The question is then - why are we having this debate?

[roofhook]

The question is then - why are we having this debate?

its simple..Vollies Suck and others like him would rather stir the pot than become part of the solution.
VS has a career as a firefighter in the big city and lives in an area that is covered by a volunteer department...instead of joining the volunteer department,bringing his skills and experiance and working to improve their service, he wants to jump on the WWW and slam the volunteer fire service (a service that many of his "brothers" are a member of).
Hopefully his little rants will make him feel better and he will move on...

[hog]

vollies suck isn`t a firefighter at all............if he was he wouldn`t act like a little child that didn`t get his own way

[regs1]

VS has been on this web site for around two years, not to defend him, but his position has not changed. A lot of volunteers have taken him to task, but really have not proven his view wrong.
The only item I have is that from his viewpoint all volunteers exist only one way, that a two person manned firetruck, is always better than firetruck manned by volunteers. This probable has been based on the local fire departments that exist where his lives and work.

I can see his view point, many volunteer organization like so many paid systems are stuck in their ways often refusing to change to meet the new demands made of them. Often a volunteer system will see its membership fall off, then instead of finding out the reason why, will often change their “rules”.

An example of this is one year I was teaching a F/F I, and II Class to a volunteer Department. They had a rule that no under the age of 18 could ride the truck. I would often drop in and find out how things were going, one item was brought up was decreasing manpower, and number of response increasing, their last volunteer drive only resulted in having only one 35 year old join, but 10 - 16 to 17 olds joining. One of the main reasons that the board of directors found was the over 18 crowd did not join was the mandatory shifts and the requirement of having to spend one full night shift at the firehouse. A newly elected chief look up the local labor laws and found out that the 16-17 year old crowd could now be F/F’s, so the “bylaws” were changed to let them respond. Was this move correct, not my call here, but coming from the outside, I saw this organization had problems, and could have made other moves first.

The main criticism I have of VS is his narrow volunteer viewpoint, he tends to refuse to see that volunteer organization are necessary, not every community can afford a paid system, nor is every paid system a problem solver, but he does have his views, and I for one do respect him for them.

[feartheturtle]

how can you be so sure that I don't come from a large city or that I haven't seen a large city function? and you asked if volunteers are real firefighters why don't they do it as a career? BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT CAREER, just because they don't get paid to do the SAME shit you do doesn't make you any better. I can see that you get a kick out of getting a rise out of volunteers. If this is how you get your rocks off, then bravo. Did you ever stop to think that while the volunteers have regular jobs to go to DURING THE DAY when most of the calls occur, they can't be at the station? So since volunteers are so horrible, if you went around the US and shut down any all vol. stations and took out any vol. from combo stations, where would you be? left standing there with your thumb up your ass! you are a poor excuse for a firefighter not to mention a human being.

[SouthsideLadderMan]

Here we go again, for the newer posters.

As much as I disagree with what VS says for the most part, none of you that bash him can argue one of his main points.

WE DO NOT DO THE SAME THING AS CAREER FIREFIGHTERS!

Volunteers, for the most part, do not do many of the Following:

Arson Investigation
Apparatus Maintenance
Dwelling Inspections
Human Resources (Two Clems sitting on a keg recruiting people before a meeting DOES NOT count as human resources)
Contract Procurement
Communications
Explosive Ordinance Disposal
Hazardous Materials
Weapons of Mass Destruction

Some VFD's do these things, but most don't. We cannot continue to sit here and say "I do the same thing you do except I do it for free" when we don't!

These two different types of Fire Protection Services are alike in many ways, but not in all. Until some of you Kool-aid drinkers can get over these facts, you will never beat VS in a debate. But it's fun to watch you look like Morons while trying!

[feartheturtle]

Volunteers, for the most part, do not do many of the Following:

Arson Investigation
Apparatus Maintenance
Dwelling Inspections
Human Resources (Two Clems sitting on a keg recruiting people before a meeting DOES NOT count as human resources)
Contract Procurement
Communications
Explosive Ordinance Disposal
Hazardous Materials
Weapons of Mass Destruction



these things are not even done by all career personnel!
ok, so volunteers don't do EVERYTHING career personnel do, but on an ambulance call, is a volunteer's bandaid not as sticky as a career person's? When putting out a fire is a volunteer's water not as wet as a career person's?
This is not about winning a contest, it is about a person who thinks that career label makes him better than those who volunteer their time for the good of their community. A person who thinks because a volunteer chose not to go out and get a fire department career, that volunteer isn't worth anything. WTF! I thought the fire department was a "brotherhood" not, career brotherhood and volunteer brotherhood, like peas and mashed potatos on a 5 year olds plate and God forbid they should touch each other!

[regs1]

I believe I have said this so many times:

Weather a community has a volunteer system or a paid department; it is up to the local government. If the local government officials feel that the volunteers are doing an adequate job, than that system will exist. If they feel that the volunteers are not, then a paid system will be used.

To make the argument who does what, who's more dedicated, makes no sense to me.

Feartheturtle: you make the argument that volunteers do everything a paid man does on a call. Yes, on a fire or ems they basically do the same things, but if you every spent time around a paid system you will know that running calls is about 10 to 15% of a paid man duty, its all the other stuff that a paid man does, I not going into particulars, and get into a one and one debate since each paid system is different, and so is each volunteer department. In fact I know of paid housed that running calls is really 50-70% of their time on duty.

My question to the volunteers is why do you make the argument that you provide the same service, or better than a paid system. Be proud for what you are, you guys take the time away from you family, jobs, and general free time to be at a firehouse. Be proud of what you are, not what you want to be. If you belong to a volunteer fire department, be that best volunteer department around. If you know there are some “wackos” in your department, well move them on and out.

[hog]

THE difference between a career firefighter and a volunteer is nothing but a paycheck.....that is it.........PISSES ME OFF THAT AN IDIOT LIKE VOLLIES SUCK says this crap and has no facts to back it up other than his daddy knew someone to get him a paid position

[regs1]

hog;

If you feel that way, support your statement, VS has certainly supported his, I can tell you the main differance between a paid system and a volunteer one, but so far you have not. Throwing statements like his daddy got him the job is childish and immuture, and just makes you look like one of the wacko's VS always points to.

[BCFD in Philly]

THE difference between a career firefighter and a volunteer is nothing but a paycheck.....that is it.........PISSES ME OFF THAT AN IDIOT LIKE VOLLIES SUCK says this crap and has no facts to back it up other than his daddy knew someone to get him a paid position

Sometimes when I read hog's statements, I think Vollies Suck has set up the "hog" screen name to provide a "straw man argument" (not that he needs one), since it is hard to believe a real person could actually be stupid and ignorant enough to make such statements.

[medic5]

NO, I think Hog is just an uneducated prime example of white trailer trash. My own feelings are that if someone cannot even spell the simplest of words (higher than a 3rd grade level), they should not be allowed to breed and try to do battle on a website. In reading some of his postings (after 2 hours of deciphering) I have come to realize that you are probably one of those typical fat hog members with overalls and a gut that has prevented you from seeing your small cock in years. Hog, you really are one of the dumbest creatures I have seen come across in a long time, perhaps a good job for you would be poster boy for Trojan.

Honestly, I can't still believe this debate is still going on. It's just not worth it. Each person will stick to their guns, no matter how much debate and banter. VS has good points, his approach is what pisses people off. Him and I have had several exchanges in the past and I think I can say this for both of us, that we have no good for each other. However, he backs his points up, and will not waiver in his thinking. Neither will those who volunteer.

I personally believe that there are good points to each type of service. Volunteer and Career. Volunteers spend the little bits of time that they have (after family, work, more work, etc) to serve their community when they can. Career personnel provide guaranteed service to the taxpayers and honestly do more things than a volunteer house will do. It's really just time to just quit with the whole damn issue, because this car has been in a ditch and spinning its wheels for 2 years now on here. VS, thought I would keep in touch. :D

[PrideOfPigTown]

Refuse to fight fire try the laddies Auxilary ! If you can not do the job try serving sandwiches.

[Vollies Suck]

Sometimes when I read hog's statements, I think Vollies Suck has set up the "hog" screen name to provide a "straw man argument" (not that he needs one), since it is hard to believe a real person could actually be stupid and ignorant enough to make such statements.

If you think his public posts are ignorant and stupid, you ought to read the Private Messages he's sent to me!

[Vollies Suck]

Lots of responses since my last post on here...let me try to offer some comments to some of them.

Roofhook, the volunteer system where I live is so bad, so corrupt, so ineffective, that no, I will not become a part of it. Also, after spending a work shift inside a firehouse, I am not inclined to spend my time off inside another firehouse: I do have a life outside the fire service. And FYI, I do volunteer in my community in other ways.

Regs 1, thanks for the backhanded compliment in your first post of 9/21. However, I do not believe, and have never said, that a career engine with two members aboard is automatically preferable to a volunteer engine. (I will say that sometimes that might be the case, depending on the experience of the people involved.) There are many career departments in small towns that cut corners and understaff apparatus, though I think that is less likely since the advent of the federal 2-in-2-out regulation (which volunteer fire service organizations fought tooth and nail). And yes, there are VFDs that are run very efficiently, where fully manned units hit the streets as soon as they get a call. But in my experience, that is rare. Your second post of 9/21 was terrific, a great analysis of this whole debate, and you actually summed up my opinion very well.

Feartheturtle, you are right that volunteers provide fire protection throughout America. But most Americans are protected by professional firefighters. (That's because VFDs are found mostly in less-populated areas.) As for my situation, I do not work with volunteers. My FD is 100% professional. If you all disappeared tomorrow, it would not affect me in the slightest. (And if you all disappeared tomorrow, the people in the county where I live would be no worse off!) Regarding your second post of 9/21, you miss or ignore my point entirely. Yes, the volly's bandaid is just as sticky and his water just as wet as the professional firefighter's, but I have never claimed otherwise.

What I have argued is that in this day and age, it is not right to provide a vital public service via volunteers, who simply cannot always be available when needed. Would you leave your garbage for volunteer trashmen to collect? Would you send your kids to a school staffed by volunteer teachers? Would you depend on volunteer cops to respond to a police emergency? If the answer to those questions is "no", then I think it is inappropriate to entrust fire protection and EMS to people who might or might not be available when they are needed in an emergency. (There are many other deficiencies inherent in a volunteer fire service, but this is the main one as I see it.)

Having said that, I understand that not every town can afford a professional fire department. But if the only difference between us really is money, if you do everything we do as well as we do it, then no career firefighter would have a job.

SouthsideLadderMan, I salute your candor and honesty. Thank you.

Hog, if you think professional firefighters work only for their paychecks, then you truly have no idea what this ancient and honorable calling is all about. Your name calling and ad hominem attacks say more about you than they do about me.

[hog]

vollies suck...no my friend it is you who don`t know anything about being professional....as far as name calling look at your handle i know you are not that stupid

[Rogue22]

I was going to add something, but decided against it. Sure, I could put in my 2 cents, but this thread seems to be going just fine with the people of TWD vs. Vollies Suck. (That was meant to be taken lightly...) While I don't agree with everyone's points & opinions, I do respect them. At one other point on the old WD, I brought more to the table on the "Career vs. Volunteer" issue. There are more things to devote my time to just now.

I'll just leave it at that. Career & volunteer, stay safe!

[Vollies Suck]

vollies suck...no my friend it is you who don`t know anything about being professional....as far as name calling look at your handle i know you are not that stupid

First, Hog, we are not and never will be "friends".

Secondly, your sick, disgusting, and downright perverted Private Messages to me tell me all I need to know about you. You really need to come to grips with your obvious sexual identity problems: No normal heterosexual spends so much time talking about homosexual fellatio.

Thirdly, I stand by the comment in my last post: Your allegation that I and my brothers work only for money betrays a total lack of understanding of what being a professional firefighter is all about.

Finally, I will concede that you are a volunteer fireman. You might have a wallet full of cards, a closet full of Gall's tee-shirts, and "Hey look at me I'm a hero" stickers all over your pickup, but you are not, and never will be, a firefighter.

[paramedic 35]

Vollies Suck, when are you going to realize that, the fact that you are paid makes you a career firefighter, not a professional firefighter.

I am a career Paramedic, and have been for many years. However, I have been a professional Paramedic & Firefighter for many more years. I do not feel that, because I am a paid Paramedic, I am any better than the vollies who do the same job. I was a vollie long before I was paid, and continue to proudly volunteer.

Professionalism is not based on whether you are paid or not, but rather is a reflection of your dedication to your craft. I have seen many Fire & EMS personell who I would never consider professional. Some of these are vollies and some are career. It is a matter of pride in what you do and a willingness to strive to be the best that makes you a professional.

Remember; We can never be perfect, but we can strive for excellence.

This, in my opinion, is what defines a professional.

[Vollies Suck]

Vollies Suck, when are you going to realize that, the fact that you are paid makes you a career firefighter, not a professional firefighter.

I am a career Paramedic, and have been for many years. However, I have been a professional Paramedic & Firefighter for many more years. I do not feel that, because I am a paid Paramedic, I am any better than the vollies who do the same job. I was a vollie long before I was paid, and continue to proudly volunteer.

Professionalism is not based on whether you are paid or not, but rather is a reflection of your dedication to your craft. I have seen many Fire & EMS personell who I would never consider professional. Some of these are vollies and some are career. It is a matter of pride in what you do and a willingness to strive to be the best that makes you a professional.

Remember; We can never be perfect, but we can strive for excellence.

This, in my opinion, is what defines a professional.

You know, it really is telling that it is always you vollies who get on here to argue that you are just the same as career firefighters, except that you don't get paid for it. Funny though, you never see career firefighters whining that they are just as dedicated as volunteers. Now just why do you suppose it is that you want to be thought of as my equal, but I don't care to be thought of as your equal?

Given your desperate desire to be thought of as legitimate, I'm not surprised that you have such a broad definition of what it means to be a "professional". And I've seen, from time to time, you vollies trot out quotes from the dictionary. But I'll tell you what: The next time you are introduced to a stranger, and the question is asked "what do you do?" I would love to see you explain that you are a "professional" firefighter, except that you don't get paid for it. Try that, and you will immediately be thought of as a goof.

And here's another thought for you: Would you take your sick child to a pediatrician who works for nothing in his spare time, but claims to be just as competent as a doctor who works at that profession for a living? Would you want the services of a "professional volunteer" plumber, teacher, cop, auto mechanic, painter, or anything else? Or would you be more inclined to trust someone who works in that field legitimately, and who can be held accountable for his actions?

I've said this before, but it bears repeating: If your community values your service, then be happy with that. Stop trying to bask in the reflected glory of those who have made public service their career, and stop trying to pretend to be something you are not.

[Feelin' Lucky]

If that pediatrician could prove (a degree in pediatric medicine) that he/she IS just a competent as one that does it for money, then sure. You make it sound as if someone bleeding heavily that pulls into an all vol. station seeking assistance would realize there are nothing but volunteers and say oh, my mistake I need a career emt to help me, let me hop back in my car and drive another 10 or 15 miles to that station. you don't care about being volunteers' equals because all you can do is put them down. where, I live volunteers are held accountable for their actions just as much as career firefighters. and why is it not legitimate for volunteers? that I just can't understand.

[medic5]

Your point about taking your child to an unpaid vs paid pediatrician. The last time I checked, everyone was held accountable for their actions. I never knew that ALS providers had different protocols, based on being paid or volunteer. When did that begin? You are held accountable for your actions by the body of people hired to govern every single provider in this state. So in that respect, I don't think your argument holds water. I do agree, however, that you don't see career personnel desperately trying to fit in with the volunteers or to be one, as you see so much of the vice-versa. As far as the dedication goes, you likely don't hear career persons talking about "their dedication" because most plan on retiring with that department, and can collect a steady paycheck. Does dedication mean just doing your job as many career personnel do? Does it mean going above and beyond what's called for? I find that many volunteers have a love for helping others, and can be considered dedicated to the volunteer service. Just because they cannot make every call does not make them less of a person. Some would argue that you are not dedicated to your community by not volunteering. You are, in effect, withholding your skills and services that could be rendered to someone in need. You may volunteer in other aspects (as many holier than thou people proclaim), but you are still denying your community of your availability to help them. What happens if your child has something seriously wrong happen, medically or traumatically, at your house. Are you going to drive him/her to a paid area? If not, then you're being hypocritical, as you stated you would not take your child to an unpaid pediatrician. I can see some of your points, but I think your absolute holier than thou personality just shines through. I bet you're a pleasure to work with. By the way, what concern is it of yours if Maryland is not your area? Just wondering, perhaps thinking you could fix the woes of the fire service where you are and should stay. Maryland has its quota of know it alls, paid professional and volunteer professional. :)

[paramedic 35]

Vollies Suck, You evidently can read, but not between the lines. If someone asked me what I did for a living I would be proud to tell them that I am a career Paramedic / Supervisor. If they inquired as to my community service activities I would tell them that I am a Volunteer Paramedic & Firefighter.

I understand some of what you are trying to say but a lot of it just does not apply to all parts of the country. If my county could afford to pay Firefighters I would not apply. Mostly because it would probably mean a pay cut. I would be very happy to have career Fire Protection for my family. Unfortunately that is not the case where I live. We have to make do with a volunteer system, which is not perfect.

Fortunately most of our members are committed to training to stay current and to keep their skills sharp. We all have other jobs, but we also have mutual aid to assist us if needed during critical times of the day when most of us are working.

We also have the luxury of having a career Fire / EMS Dept. right across the state line (2 miles from our station). While they will not cover fire calls they will handle our EMS calls which we can not get out on (which might average less than 1% per year).

As for spouting definitions, I simply stated MY opinion. I can assure you that, as a career Paramedic, I spend the same amount of time training, if not LESS, than when I was only a Vollie Paramedic. This is simply my way of keeping my skills sharp. It is a matter of personal pride for me. It is unfortunate that the same can not be said for everyone.

I do not wish to get into a pissing contest with you over Career vs Volunteer. I would just like to see you admit, once, that there are some Vollies out there who can do the job as well as the Paid people.

[hog]

First, Hog, we are not and never will be "friends".

Secondly, your sick, disgusting, and downright perverted Private Messages to me tell me all I need to know about you. You really need to come to grips with your obvious sexual identity problems: No normal heterosexual spends so much time talking about homosexual fellatio.

Thirdly, I stand by the comment in my last post: Your allegation that I and my brothers work only for money betrays a total lack of understanding of what being a professional firefighter is all about.

Finally, I will concede that you are a volunteer fireman. You might have a wallet full of cards, a closet full of Gall's tee-shirts, and "Hey look at me I'm a hero" stickers all over your pickup, but you are not, and never will be, a firefighter....how dare you say that?.....who are you to say who is a firefighter and who isn`t?....you coward peice of shit....i am so tired of you trying to turn what you are around on me asshole........you are the one that if firefighting was more than a job would understand brotherhood.....i have a lot of friends that run in the city of Pittsburgh...they aren`t like you ........you are nothing but a paid firefighter...there is nothing professional about you.....when you judge what you don`t know.....anyways it is funny how you run your mouth and you could never do what i do shawn

[hog]

and one more thing there vollies suck...i am not gay so don`t push your lifestyle on me please......... i think you need to grow up and get out of the house more one day you`ll need a volly ...i can`t wait ...i would pay to see you eat crow

[medic5]

Hog, you're the one who IM'd Vollies Suck incessantly with your references of "sucking dick" and other homosexual ideas. I'm sure he didn't take the time to IM you with the same stupid remarks that you write here and all over Pennsylvania. You are an idiot, you prove it by your spelling alone. Granted, I do not care for the way Vollies Suck comes across, at the same time I can appreciate most of his views and how he backs them up. I would bet a paycheck that Vollies Suck did not start the IM pissing match. In all of the arguments that him and I have had, he never once IM'd me with any homosexual remarks. Don't try to lie and turn it around, you closet case.

[Vollies Suck]

Well, it looks like I stirred up quite a little hornet's nest, eh? You guys need to get a grip. Why is it so all-fired important to you that you be thought of as equivalent to me and my brothers?

Feelin' Lucky, there is no way you would take a sick child to a pediatrician who makes his or her living doing something else, and "volunteers" as a doctor in his or her spare time. (Unless, as Medic 5 noted, there was no alternative available.) You would rightly wonder why that person is not working in that field.

Medic 5, yes, all ALS providers are nominally held to the same standards. But in many communities across the USA, there is little or no oversight of volunteer fire companies. Hence my comment about accountability. (If I screw up at work I can lose my job, if you vollies screw up can or will the local town or county government fire you and replace you?)

Some would argue that I am not dedicated to my community by not volunteering? Well, Medic 5, I have an obligation to be dedicated to my family and myself too, and after spending a shift working in a professional fire service environment, I am loathe to spend my precious time off in any fire station, let alone one that is run the way most volunteer fire companies are run: elected officers, junior members, headcases, etc., etc. I have many different skills and talents -- writing being one of them -- and I do in fact volunteer in my community, as do many other career firefighters. If things are so bad, volunteers so scarce, that a career firefighter who chooses not to volunteer is to be looked down upon, then perhaps it's time to start a career fire department where you live.

Paramedic 35, I have never said that there are not some volunteer firemen who can perform as well as some professional firefighters. I will readily admit that that is the case. My argument is, and has always been, that volunteer fire systems are inherently flawed, and that it is chancy, to say the least, to provide a vital public safety service with people who might or might not be available when needed. Furthermore, even the best-run volunteer fire systems have inherent flaws that make them a decidedly inferior way of providing fire protection or EMS.

Incidentally, referring to me and my brothers as "paid firemen" denigrates and devalues what we do. We are professional firefighters who have dedicated our working lives to the cause of public safety. Fire protection is our profession, our calling, not our hobby, and repeated attempts by you volunteers to argue that you are our equals is insulting in the extreme. Contrary to what you volunteers often claim, there are vast differences between us: numbers of calls; level of experience, amount of fire service, are all much higher in the typical FD than in the typical VFD. (Yes, there are some exceptions.) Unlike volunteers, we perform ancillary duties, we are subject to accountability and discipline, and we spend many more hours at this endeavor. We accept lower pay, a shorter life span, the sacrifices our families make, because we believe in public service. We do this for money? Most of us -- myself included -- are over-educated and over-qualified for what we do, but have chosen to earn our meager livings this way because we believe in it. Those of you who taunt us by saying you would not do what we do because you could not afford the pay cut...you are the ones who are motivated by money.

Hog, these words of yours: "...how dare you say that?.....who are you to say who is a firefighter and who isn`t?....you coward peice of shit....i am so tired of you trying to turn what you are around on me asshole........you are the one that if firefighting was more than a job would understand brotherhood.....i have a lot of friends that run in the city of Pittsburgh...they aren`t like you ........you are nothing but a paid firefighter...there is nothing professional about you.....when you judge what you don`t know.....anyways it is funny how you run your mouth and you could never do what i do" exemplify what I mean when I say that while you are indeed a volunteer fireman, you are not, and never could be, a firefighter. Thanks for proving my point.

I don't know if you're gay or not, but in 14 Private Messages going back to June 14, you have repeatedly accused me of blowing somebody in order to get my job. For example, here is the text from your PM of August 5: "I get it you had to blow someone to get your job.....lol....i guess daddy couldn`t do it for you......funny.....someday you won`t have to preform gay sex for a job" Now, I might say some inflammatory things once in a while to get a rise out of someone, but it would never occur to me to accuse another man of performing fellatio. And if for some odd reason I did decide to use that insult, I would cease and desist immediately upon realizing it didn't work. You, however, have kept it up, to the point that it is clear that you are obsessed with the subject of homosexual fellatio. I don't know why that is, but I know it isn't normal. Get some help.

[medic5]

All throughout his postings in Pennsylvania are references to homosexual sex, man on man fellatio, salad tossing, prison bitch, and any other sort of faggotry imaginable. Like I said, he is an uneducated, redneck, wife-beating, closet homosexual. I don't mind homosexuals in general (I do not agree with it), however, I do not approve of those who flame others with accusatory statements of homosexuality because they are ashamed of themselves. Hog, I was wondering, did you pick that screen name so your wife could use it too and it fit?

[Feelin' Lucky]

How do you know what I would or would not do? If a pediatrician volunteered his/her time to help my child and I knew that he/she was a legitimate doctor with the right qualifications to practice medicine particularly in the pediatric field, then I absolutly would. you have no right to sit there and tell me that I would not take my child to said pediatrician, you don't know me, you don't know my circumstances, don't assume things about others based on your opinions. Most likely, I wouldn't wonder why that person is not working as a doctor, and heres why...If that person carried him/herself in a professional manor, filled me in on everything going on with my child, had a professional setting to practice, and most importantly proof of pediatric medical degree. then I would have no reason to question. naturally, I would do research on the doctor to be sure, but I would do that with any doctor I would send my child to. The only reason I didn't do it with the two he goes to now is because I have been going to them all my life.

[Emtmom]

Hog, you're the one who IM'd Vollies Suck incessantly with your references of "sucking dick" and other homosexual ideas. I'm sure he didn't take the time to IM you with the same stupid remarks that you write here and all over Pennsylvania. You are an idiot, you prove it by your spelling alone. Granted, I do not care for the way Vollies Suck comes across, at the same time I can appreciate most of his views and how he backs them up. I would bet a paycheck that Vollies Suck did not start the IM pissing match. In all of the arguments that him and I have had, he never once IM'd me with any homosexual remarks. Don't try to lie and turn it around, you closet case.
You know Medic5, seems to me you know an awful lot about Vollies PM's....would that make you one and the same.....or does that mean you have your head so far up his ass you can read his Pm's?

[hog]

Medic5 is vollies sucks.....he is a coward who just wants to start shit....he can talk it but can`t take it

[medic5]

Wrong again, you little piggie. Here is a copy of what little Miss Piggy sent to my IM box. Thankfully, it did not have any homosexual references. I'm sure that will follow.

you have alot of balls...too bad though you open a can of worms with no facts...lol..it is cool i know 100 people like you....KNOW-IT-ALLS......it will get you no where there and i really don`t care what you think of me because you are nobody get it?

My name has been signed all throughout my postings (not every single one, but numerous times.) I have the balls to sign my name, however, I don't have a fear of you coming to visit me. In fact, I'm pretty sure your piggy feet have never set foot outside of Pennsylvania. I do have facts, I don't exaggerate my posts. Believe me, Vollies Suck is not me on another name. I don't care for the guy, look back at many of our posts in response to one another. I can appreciate his points and how he backs himself up though. Anyone else smell bacon?

[hog]

what the hell is the matter with you medic5...all you do is talk shit act like a child and when someone calls you on it you cry....you aren`t worth the time for me to piss with....oh yea and medic i was in the Navy so i went to more places than you probley ever will........like i said you run your mouth without facts...........

[medic5]

LMAO. I cry when someone replies to my post. That's a first. Miss Piggy, I can surely take plenty of criticism. You start threads to inflame, and then cry when someone comes back at you. I'm wondering, which piggy personality are we dealing with on a day to day basis. You are a bitch. A simple, piggy smelling, pig nosed, bitch. If you were in the armed forces, you more than likely were a disgrace to our country. I know plenty of men and women who serve in the military, and they are upstanding people, who at the very least, can spell. If I'm not worth the time, what brings you back to replying to me?
Vollies Suck, I'm inviting you to the Alleghany County, PA threads. Check out this little piggy for yourself.
BTW, it's "probably." Moronic bitch.

[hog]

there we go more name calling...lol what a child you are......

[hog]

i served and i have an honorable discharge....did you ever have the balls to serve or couldn`t you get away from mommy`s titty?...talk all the shit you want.....you are just making my point easy

[hog]

no reply yet...my god....you haven`t called me miss piggy...oh please come on here and call me names so like you i can feel like a kid again

[Emtmom]

Wrong again, you little piggie. Here is a copy of what little Miss Piggy sent to my IM box. Thankfully, it did not have any homosexual references. I'm sure that will follow.

you have alot of balls...too bad though you open a can of worms with no facts...lol..it is cool i know 100 people like you....KNOW-IT-ALLS......it will get you no where there and i really don`t care what you think of me because you are nobody get it?

My name has been signed all throughout my postings (not every single one, but numerous times.) I have the balls to sign my name, however, I don't have a fear of you coming to visit me. In fact, I'm pretty sure your piggy feet have never set foot outside of Pennsylvania. I do have facts, I don't exaggerate my posts. Believe me, Vollies Suck is not me on another name. I don't care for the guy, look back at many of our posts in response to one another. I can appreciate his points and how he backs himself up though. Anyone else smell bacon? Would that be IM's that you're getting, or PM's? Either way........anyone could have written what is here, there is no proof of it being from someone else.
As for your best buddy Vollie..........
What makes a paid FF think he or she is any better than a Volunteer? And what could he use to back it up? I know several paid FF's and like the volunteers alot of the calls they respond to are bullshit calls. So as far as going on more calls....not always a FACT! Washing trucks and mowing the lawn at the firehouse don't count! We also take classes and get certs, just like paid ff's. Just because he chooses NOT to volunteer, doesn't mean all paid FF's are like that. In fact the chief of one of our VOL. mutual aid depts. is also a paid FF... THAT MY FRIEND IS DEDICATION to the community. AND YES, we also do other community service...does that make us any better than anyone else....NO!!!!!!!!! Why anyone would back up someone who thinks they are superior is beyond me!

[hog]

that is very true emtmom......medic5 just needs some attention....i think he has issues with his sexuallity......he keps bringing up homosexual thoughts.......makes one wonder when medic5 took his oath to be a medic if a homosexual needed his help ....what would he do?...hmmmmmmmmmm i wonder

[hog]

my big question to you medic5 is ...would you help a homosexual......or what would you do....seeing as how great a person you are?

[Vollies Suck]

Nice try, Emtmom, but the only thing Medic 5 and I have in common is that we have a very low tolerance level for idiots like you and Hog. Your crude assertion about Medic 5 having his head up my ass puts you in the same cultured and educated class as Hog. I'll bet you set a great example for your kids.

I've answered the professional vs. volunteer question so many times throughout my posts that your raising it again makes me wonder if you really are that stupid? I guess so...

Well, just in case you haven't read it the other million or so times I've said it, here goes: Real live professional firefighters, unlike volunteers, are available when needed, are able to deliver a consistent level of service, and are accountable to the citizens for their actions. Professional firefighters have made this ancient and honorable calling their life's work, not their hobby. They are generally more proficient than volunteers. They are far more disciplined and serious. Those are just a few of the reasons why they are better, and why a career system is far preferable to a volunteer system.

And if you need further evidence of the vast differences between real (career) firefighters and volunteers, look no further than Hog's and your own posts: Do you think we would see such idiotic, senseless, semi-literate garbage coming from anyone but a volly?

Hog, for you to accuse anyone of having issues with his sexuality is downright laughable. That accusation against Medic 5 is clearly meant to deflect attention from your own evident psycho-sexual problems. You really are more to be pitied than anything else. In one of your first PMs to me, you claimed to be a single father. If that is true, please get some help, before you infect another generation in your family with your sick thinking.

[Emtmom]

Well, just in case you haven't read it the other million or so times I've said it, here goes: Real live professional firefighters, unlike volunteers, are available when needed, are able to deliver a consistent level of service, and are accountable to the citizens for their actions. Professional firefighters have made this ancient and honorable calling their life's work, not their hobby. They are generally more proficient than volunteers. They are far more disciplined and serious. Those are just a few of the reasons why they are better, and why a career system is far preferable to a volunteer system.Volunteers ARE proffesionals, we train just like those of you who do it for the pay check! You're problem is you NEED to say stuff like to so you can feel superior to those of us who GIVE our time to our communities!

[SouthsideLadderMan]

Every one of you people that claim that we do the exact same thing as Career Firefighters are doing nothing but proving that your method of thinking is as Convoluted as those who look down on the Volunteer Fire Service.

Neither side is "Better" than the other, but both sides have tremendous differences that make each side unique in it's own right. Volunteers and Career Firefighters are different. They are a 180 degree turn from each other. You cannot say that Podunk VFD in Pennsylania provides the exact same service as the Philadelphia Fire Department. It just does not happen. Most VFD's don't even have Haz Mat Response.

Get used to it, we don't do the same thing. Do I agree 100% with VolliesSuck? No way. However I do believe he has valid points. Although I think his screen name is the biggest reason people misunderstand him, and VS, I think you might be able to agree with that to some extent.

Stop attacking him and Start Debating him. VS has so many advantages over his attackers that it's laughable.

HOG- Learn to spell and use proper grammar. You look like a complete turd when you post. If you are trying to make a case for the Volunteer Fire Service, you are doing a poor job. I don't need a Degenerate like yourself representing me.

Washing trucks and mowing the lawn at the firehouse don't count!

Why not? You don't wash "apparatus" (Trucks haul freight) or take care of your Firehouse Grounds?

We also take classes and get certs, just like paid ff's.

Wow, you want a cookie for that? You take Classes Two nights a week at the least and you can wipe your ass with your certifications. I have Fire Officer II, does that mean I now can go command a Fire in a Career Fire Department? No.......Your certs don't mean shit.

[Emtmom]

Why not? You don't wash "apparatus" (Trucks haul freight) or take care of your Firehouse Grounds?



Wow, you want a cookie for that? You take Classes Two nights a week at the least and you can wipe your ass with your certifications. I have Fire Officer II, does that mean I now can go command a Fire in a Career Fire Department? No.......Your certs don't mean shit.
We do take care of our trucks, grounds and building!
And, no we don't need cookies because we train. If certs mean nothing, why did you waste your time taking the fire Officer class? Certs and classes mean you are learning, and hopefully you can pass on that knowledge. My CERTS are NOT useless, if I had not taken my EMT class....I would not be able to work on an accident victim, or a sick person. So would you mind telling me how that cert is useless? Or how a haz mat cert is useless...or do you use the man down method for determining the safety of a scene??????????
If you think your certs are useles then stop wasting your time taking classes. And I will thank god I don't have to work with you!

[Feelin' Lucky]

certifications only mean something if the individual who possess them can USE them!

[Emtmom]

certifications only mean something if the individual who possess them can USE them!
That's true, I have had the unfortunate experiance to have worked with both MRT's and EMT's, who didn't know what to do with a patient.

[medic5]

EMTMom, weren't you the one who hog said had "saggy tits" in a PA thread? Why do you take up for him? Anyways, I find it funny that anything said against you Miss Piggy, you go to the next post and try to use that same insult. Are you that unoriginal? I've never sent you any IM's with homosexual references. In fact, I have never sent you any IM's at all, but I have receieved 2 from you in 2 days, with various names splattered in there. How do I know about the IM's to Vollies Suck? That's because he has copied one or two of them, and complained about others. The fact that you have the compelling need to write about homosexuality and different sex acts leads normal people (yes, people who are not like you) to believe that you are a closet case. Now, if you are questioning my sexuality, why in the next sentence practically accuse me of being bigoted enough not to treat homosexuals? So are you calling me a queer or homophobic? If you're going to try to insult me (I've been called worse by smarter people), then at least make some damn sense.

EMTMom, if you had any clue, IM's are the same as PM's. Instant Messages (yes, they are instant here) or Private Messages (which they are as well.) Now, if you have any other bright ideas on trying to pick apart my posts, (since I can spell and use grammar,) by all means try.

Miss Piggy, I have a question. What's brotherhood mean to you? I know you're probably hoping it is one big circle jerk and you be the pivot bitch, but that's wrong. You know what else is wrong? You being part of it. Anyone who wants to kill off his mutual aid dept. because they didn't show up for a sissy parade. Hoggie, I saw in the coupons WalMart has kleenex on sale. Better stock up, because you're the biggest, whiniest, crying bitch on this site.

[Emtmom]

First of all, this is the person who said that:
Originally Posted by pinchhitter16
i'll bet you have saggy boobs.. and are real fat
And the only 3 MEN who stood up and said anything about it were, HOG, FIREDUCK, and one of the moderators who PM'd me. I stood up for myself, but it was nice that they took the time to also post. The remark was uncalled for, and had nothing at all to do with the thread.

Second, I don't always stick up for Hog. He's a big boy, he can do it himself. When someone starts a serious thread and all anyone can do is worry about spelling errors or grammer, then I'm going to say something. As far as the post here saying anyone would have typed what you said he did, it's true, you showed no proof it was him.
FYI if someone did that to you......... I would post the same thing, that they showed no proof it was you who had typed it.... If you want to call it sticking up for someone then call it that. I call it pointing out the obvious.

third: I have NEVER pm'd you, this is the only NN I have on this site. If I have something to say about a thread, I will post it on the thread. I don't need to hide behind PM's!

[SouthsideLadderMan]

You two are truly gems of the Volunteer Fire Service. I am proud to associate with both of you. :rolleyes:

For the second time, the vehicles we ride on to supress fires and perform Emergency Medical Service are called "Apparatus," not "Trucks!"

A Truck is something that hauls shit to a septic plant. Now, if you and Hog are on a Fire Engine, I guess you could call it a "Truck" by my definition.

I refuse to argue with either one of you low-life's. You do not represent me and my views or my service as a Volunteer Firefighter. However you both fit the profile of a Pennsyltucky Inbred with a Blue 86" lightbar on a Ford Festiva.

Get lives and please, Do not Breed.

[Truck23]

Folks,
After reading some of the posts I think we have beaten this horse well into oblivion. Southside, I agree with what you said and Medic 5 I agree on some of the things you said. Do I agree with things that VS has said? No, Do I agree with alot of what he has said? yes. I have been a volunteer going on 15 years, I had a uncle who was in the fire service for 30 + years and was a fire chief for a long time. Am I proud to be a volunteer? Yes I am. The fact is that we do not run the same as the career departments, and we do not do the same things that career departments do. My station runs about 450-500 calls a year making us one of the busiest stations in my county. That's plenty for me, I have no desire to run 4500-5000 calls a year. If I was 10 years younger(I'm only 30) and single and not married, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'd like to think that my station could hold it's own against any department(career or volunteer) because of our training standards that we have and are strict about. There are good volunteer departments and bad ones, same goes for career departments. The same things go for good vol firefighters and bad ones and by everyone attacking VS, you are just proving his point on vol firefighters. I don't agree with everything the man says, I think he could go about it in a different way but I do agree with alot of what he says. With some of you going on about training and certs and the way you have gone after VS, I highly doubt that you could sit down and have an intelligant conversation with the man on tactics,training,appratus or the fire service in general( By the way VS, would you like to have a friendly chat on that topic??)

VS,
One question I did think of, What's your opinion on Departments that are a combo department Career/Volunteer??

[medic5]

LMAO Southside, I couldn't have said it better myself! EMTMom, go back and carefully read what I posted. Perhaps you missed a few words when you looked away to spit into your spitoon. I said Hog has sent me private messages. Show proof? I'm going to make the shit up? Hog doesn't have one ounce of credibility. Yes you are right, he is a BIG boy. But he just spouts off at the mouth, and proves he is one of the stereotypical inbred, fat rednecks from the mountains. Now, I am not knocking anyone from Pennsylvania, as they have many fine fire department personnel. But this is the guy who you have representing your county on here, who runs off at his ball smoothers, and then cries when he is picked on in return. Hog, didn't you say you weren't going to waste anymore time on me? Seems that you have taken extraordinary measures to do just the opposite. Sending me messages via this website, yahoo, and replies on here makes me belive that you just can't let it go. I find you quite humorous in your obvious stupidity and undereducation (that's school for you.)

[No Fear]

Boy sure is a lot of love displayed here

[Feelin' Lucky]

we have trucks where I ride, labeled as towers, quints, and TRUCKS oh my!

[SouthsideLadderMan]

When you group apparatus together, referring to them as "Trucks" or "Rigs" is almost as degrading as calling a Paramedic an "Ambulance Driver" or calling an EMT a "Paramedic."

When you refer to your fleet of vehicles as a whole, the proper term is Apparatus or even "Equipment."

Singly calling a Piece of Apparatus what it is is fine.

Engine is an Engine, a Truck is a Ladder is a Tower is a Ladder Tower is an Aerial is a Quint, a Rescue is a Squad or a Rescue. When they are all together they are "Apparatus."

[hog]

Medic5....all you do is call names....why not be a man and grow up....quit the bashing because that is what you say i di and that is all you do

[Feelin' Lucky]

a paramedic is an emt, just the highest level thats why they call them EMT-Ps.

[medic5]

No, I don't call names all the time. I leave to twits like you. You're really digging for something on me aren't you? Quit acting like such a big baby. By big, I do mean BIG. You were proven to be an uneducated redneck who spills pure shit from your mouth and have nothing to offer. Go back to changing oil, I bet you're a "professional" at that.

[Mack183]

Ok, well i guess its finally my turn to chime in. I've read the last 2 pages and alot of Hogs and Emtmoms works. VS, first off I am a volley. Not that I'm offended by your comments being this is a timeless battle, Professional vs. volley, good vs evil, ali vs. frazier. I will say i agree with some of your points and have my own which have probably been spoken numerous times when it comes to this subject. To me this is a battle neither side will win! First the obvious WE all put our lives at risk when we do this job. We all train (I'm sure there are exceptions) for this job. This is where the line ends? In a perfect world there would be paid/professional departments in every town. Unfortunately we dont live in a perfect world. Paid firehouses are being closed everyday due to budget constraints and politics. Volley houses are being closed/consolidated daily also due to the same reasons. I understand that you will fight more actual fires in 1 year then i may fight in a lifetime. I myself and my company dont just sit around in the meantime though drinking beer and playing poker. We will train weekly and have a weight room to keep in shape like you. I know that not all departments do this. Your house is staffed 24/7/365 for a quick response. I commend the city that is able to afford to do that. Does that make you better than me professionally? Quicker to the call (sometimes) yes better, well me personally I know my job and how to perform it professionaly. I dont know you but am sure with your knowledge you do yours professionally also. In both services we have our deadbeats and headcases. Yours our paid ours come for free, lucky us! Do i agree with alot of what other departments (volley) do? Frankly, No and it scares me sometimes to show up on a job with a company full of juniors or 60+ year old firemen. This is what you get though when small towns dont have the funding for paid stations. Is this our fault because we CHOOSE to help our neighbors the best we can or know how? NO! I could be like Hog and choose to argue with no point, but that gets us nowhere. The only way to make the complete service better for all communities is to get together and train and learn from experiences. I'm sure you could share with me and I with you things that neither of us has seen. On this job as a whole we learn everyday new products, new building materials, etc. Instead of saying whose better Paid/Professional or Volleys let us share amongst ourselves so that neither of us has to join together for someones untimely death that could have been prevented.

Peace and please be safe out there!

Dennis Hickman Jr
Safety Officer LBVFD 183

[hog]

Mack183 i have a great point.....i don`t like assholes who say vollies suck.....evry volly on this freaking watchdesk should be angry with him.....you choose to kiss his ass...i choice to voice my opinion......someone who`s handle is vollies suck will never work with volunteers and if you think he will....well then you need help also

[hog]

medic5 all you do is call names....makes you a big boy....lol...all you do is judge and run your coward mouth.....all you are is a shit talker ...all shit all the time....and as far as being educated i work on $100,000 peices of equiptment.......you couldn`t do what i do.....because you have to get dirty

[hog]

I will be posting this on the Alleghany threads as well. Won't sign your name? How about a picture identifying you! Dumbass had the nerve to IM me on Yahoo Messenger and ask me to talk about homosexual tendancies.

http://profiles.yahoo.com/fireman43444

Location: Irwin, PA
Marital Status: Divorced (Imagine that, guess wife beating isn't legal?)
Gender: Male
Occupation: Mechanic (Wow, didn't see that one coming!)

Now here comes the exciting part! The picture! Anyone else think this looks like someone who belongs on the sexual predator website?
saying i beat a woman......i should file charges on you for slander....what do you think now?.......i have custody of my children and if this would screw that up not only would i sue you ......now your bashing has gone over the edge i hope and pray i never see you ......you should also

[Mack183]

Ok HOG against my better judgement I will respond to you. I am not kissing anyones ASS as you put it. As you stated in your post "I Choose to voice my opinion" which in this country is everyones God given right. I did not say I agree with Vollies Suck. Does it anger me that he thinks ALL vollies suck? Of course! However I CHOOSE to voice "MY OPINION" in a more civililized forum. It is the attitude of BOTH of YOU that puts us all in a bind! I am sure SOME vollies have a stick up their arse about paid/professional firefighters as I'm sure SOME paid/professionals have the same stick up their arse. The key word is SOME! Hog I agree with you vollies should not be bashed for what they do, but should it resort to name calling and sensless arguing about it? In MY OPINION no. There are other ways to deal with it. This after all is just a message board with God knows who voicing their OWN opinions. Take it as you will. Just don't insult me by telling me I am kissing his ass your ass anyones ass for that matter! I do as I see fit for me my company and the members I work with on a daily basis. Because I agree with him on some points and disagree on others mind you does not make me an ass kisser. As I said this seems to be a battle noone will win until WE as a whole get on the same page paid and volley alike. In the end WE all have to fight the same foe and hopefully make it home to our loved ones safely. Remember those who never came home and remember did it really make a diffrence if they were paid or volley we all hurt! Have a great day and as always EVERYONE please be safe out there!

Dennis Hickman Jr
Safety Officer LBVFD 183

[medic5]

Sue me for slander. See if it stands. Libel maybe, but prove it. Like your girlfriend EMTMom said, prove it was me. Another educated post by another uneducated oil changer. You work on $100000 equipment, big deal. We all ride $100000 equipment. Doesn't make us millionaires ya know? You still have your name "Miss Piggy" sewn on your shirt and make minimum wage, and you are still a moron who cannot spell.

[No Fear]

This is getting interesting, from show me the love, paid vs vollies and now, Judge Judy hearing Hog and Medic 5 law suit.

[hog]

yes i do medic5 come on over and see sometime or shut up.......you need to learn respect ....if you never do you will be nothing just like you are now and always will be....lol does that make you feel smart because you can pick out a misspelled word?....you are such a loser

[SouthsideLadderMan]

What a Fucking great representation of the Volunteer Fire Service. No wonder guys like VS make such waves on here. He has all the ammo in the world from idiots like you.

My biggest issue with VS is his Screen Name. With a Screen name like that, it's hard to prove that he thinks only some Volunteers Suck. However, if he changed his handle, he would be almost 100% on the mark. I have even agreed with him on alot of points. Hog, you just keep feeding him more and more Bullshit to use against the Volunteer Fire Service because you are the epitome of what is wrong with the Volunteer Service.

Just go home and slap your woman, screw your dog and change some more oil at Jiffy Lube. Next time, top off my tires please.

And if you send me any perverted PM's , I will make your life a living hell.

[Mack183]

Southside I agree that the attitude and sensless arguements on this subject give people like Volleys suck ammo, but by all means please dont judge the volunteer service as a whole based on 1 persons comments. I got myself involved in this thread which now I wonder why, but the volunteer service has its problems just as the paid service does. Alot of us train as hard as you and some even more, and the people that do it do it while holding jobs and DEDICATING THEIR TIME to do it. Its not easy in the volunteer service to have 100% professionalism but alot of companies strive to do it. I totally disagree with the name Volleys Suck, but one mans opinion does not a whole proffesion feel that way. Could the Volunteer side be better? Probably. Could some paid departments be run better? Probably. I know you've probably heard it before and I don't want to hear smart ass coments but if it werent for the Volleys who would respond? Most American towns CANNOT afford paid protection and most Counties cannot either. Most of Us do a great job and have pride in the job we do! The passion some people have about is what generates the name calling and ridiculous arguements from BOTH sides! Thanks and Please be careful and have a great day!

[medic5]

Hog, all I see is "waaahh waaaah". Paying attention to advice from you is like trying to identify what I ate in my feces. Piggy, I'm going to send you a Christmas gift early.

[SouthsideLadderMan]

I am not judging the Volunteer Service on his comments. I am more concerned with persons who may not be involved with the Volunteer Service reading his posts and seeing the ignorance coming from his mind and thinking he is representative of us all. Which you and I know, is not the case.

[Vollies Suck]

Folks,
After reading some of the posts I think we have beaten this horse well into oblivion. Southside, I agree with what you said and Medic 5 I agree on some of the things you said. Do I agree with things that VS has said? No, Do I agree with alot of what he has said? yes. I have been a volunteer going on 15 years, I had a uncle who was in the fire service for 30 + years and was a fire chief for a long time. Am I proud to be a volunteer? Yes I am. The fact is that we do not run the same as the career departments, and we do not do the same things that career departments do. My station runs about 450-500 calls a year making us one of the busiest stations in my county. That's plenty for me, I have no desire to run 4500-5000 calls a year. If I was 10 years younger(I'm only 30) and single and not married, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'd like to think that my station could hold it's own against any department(career or volunteer) because of our training standards that we have and are strict about. There are good volunteer departments and bad ones, same goes for career departments. The same things go for good vol firefighters and bad ones and by everyone attacking VS, you are just proving his point on vol firefighters. I don't agree with everything the man says, I think he could go about it in a different way but I do agree with alot of what he says. With some of you going on about training and certs and the way you have gone after VS, I highly doubt that you could sit down and have an intelligant conversation with the man on tactics,training,appratus or the fire service in general( By the way VS, would you like to have a friendly chat on that topic??)

VS,
One question I did think of, What's your opinion on Departments that are a combo department Career/Volunteer??

Truck 23, thanks for your reasoned and reasonable comments. Regarding mixed career/volunteer departments, I think you might have missed the point I have tried to make all along.

I don't care how a community provides for its fire protection and emergency medical service, as long as that method works, and provides coverage to that community 24/7/365. If you can do that with an all-volunteer fire department, that's fine with me. If you can do it with some sort of career/volunteer mix, that's fine too. If you need a fulltime professional fire department, then so be it.

The problem that I have with vollies, and which led to my taking my inflammatory screen name, is that most volunteer fire departments do not and can not provide the same coverage and level of service as a professional FD, but they pretend that they do. Their members boast about being just as good as "paid men"; they call themselves "unpaid professionals"; they maintain a public facade of competence; they talk about their training, etc., etc., etc...

In fact, many, if not most, volunteer fire departments in the USA are constantly struggling to provide the service they boast about. Membership levels fluctuate, a small number of members does most of the work, staffing is inconsistent from day-to-day, leaders are chosen by election (nothing more than a popularity contest), there is often little or no oversight by local elected officials, there is too much emphasis on hardware (apparatus) rather than software (personnel), etc., etc., etc...

The public, of course, people outside the fire service, don't know any better. They accept what they are told. Politicians don't point out the problems with VFDs, partly because it is not politically smart to criticize vollies, and partly because changing things will require raising taxes. And VFD members, having painted themselves into a corner by arguing how good they are, can't very well reverse course and suggest beginning the change to a paid fire/EMS system. So nobody benefits, and everybody suffers.

One of Clint Eastwood's best lines, from one of his Dirty Harry flicks, was "A man's got to know his limitations." Well, in the case of far too many VFDs, that is not the case. Or -- and this is even worse -- they know their limitations but will not admit to them or do anything to correct them.

To volunteer fire company members reading this: If your particular VFD is not run this way, then congratulations. If you are consistently able to respond to calls properly -- out the door quickly with a proper crew -- and you are truly run like a professional operation, then by all means, I see no need for you to "go paid". But if you are not run this well, if you do suffer from the problems I listed above, then please ask yourselves if what you are doing is really in the best interests of the public. After all, isn't that supposed to be the bottom-line consideration here?

[Mack183]

VS I do UNDERSTAND your points and dont wish to argue with you! However after reading some of your posts I've gotten a good look into how you feel. First let me say this is just in my area not sure about anyone elses. You made the comment more communities are going from volley to paid. In my area the reverse seems to happen. With deteriorating tax bases and the poor economy towns in the last 20 years that have had paid departments went to volunteer services. 2 within 5 miles of me. As of now they both seem to be doing a good job. And another large town has been toying with the idea of going volunteer. This companies staffing is composed of 5 men on 3 pieces. They are paid and i have run mutual aid with them and they do a great job! Although since you are big on staffing 5 men on 3 pieces, honestly is that enough? I agree with you that it would be great to have paid departments everywhere for the better of the community, but whose gonna pay for it? Its easy to criticize US the volleys for doing it and being unproffesional. I do have pride in what I do and dont look for medals or recognition. I love to be a firefighter simply put! I have put my hours in and have spent many a night out on a call only to go to my real job in the morning. To answer one of your questions. When I introduce myself I state my name and thats it. If the topic of what i do comes up I say I am a VOLUNTEER fireman, no need to say I'm a professional unpaid firefighter. Most people i meet are aware that volunteer means no money, do it on your own time, etc. Some people will argue with you until they dont make sense anymore. Why? You have your opinion I have mine and Joe Blow has his. Its like the saying if a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound? Who cares about opinions. You and I both know the system is broke and Will NEVER be fixed. We have to do our thing and you yours. As I said this is a timeless battle and will never be won. If you think your better than me and choose not to call me a brother thats fine, I grew up an only child anyways and like it that way. I have friends in the fire service that i feel are family. Doesnt mean You or I have to feel that way about everyone. Let this thread die and maturity rule. If it makes YOU feel better to feel you are superior to me then by all means do. I dont know you and wouldnt care to with that attitude but you dont know me either so I'm sure you feel the same. We could argue about this all nite. I'm sure you know everything and are very good for your paid department. Well Kudos to you for making this your career and getting paid for it to boot. I'll just continue to wallow in my self pity oh whoa is me little redneck volunteer fire department and blow my lights and sirens all the way to the next cat in a tree call (sarcasm for those of you who are slow)! My life is just fine and I can say my department is just fine. Have a good one VS and please as always be careful out there.....

[regs1]

Hey VS you have mellowed you position a little. ;)

Mack183 good post except for the last couple of lines. Your post shows what is wrong with cities starting a paid system then, refuse to fund it properly. VS has his points and opinions, I have mine, a understaffed paid system is more dangerous than a completely volunteer system. You state that nearby town uses 5 people to staff 3 apparatus. First if they had a fire they do not even have enough personal to establish water supply and an attack line, let along comply with the two in two out rule. What do they do, show up, rescue those they can find, and then proceed to watch the building burn down. I wonder the amount of training budget this town has for the fire department.
Not to defend VS, but his major topic has been those volunteer departments who represent themselves as professional, or better than having a paid department. Then fail to live up to the hype. I can see his point, where I live a nearby departments represent themselves exactly they same way, the volunteers live/sleep in the firehouse, have regular shifts, and even receive proper training almost to the same level of a nearby county paid system, and in the morning half of those firefighters go to high school, and when they reach 19-20 years of age, then apply to be "paid" in a nearby city and counties fire departments.
But the local government likes the present system, and the system will not change until someone important is killed, or a bunch of teenage firefighters are killed or injured.

I am not going into the volunteer professional vs. the paid professional argument. My opinion if the local government likes the volunteer system, and it works then that’s great. They are ones who have to defend the system to the local citizens.

However, if the system is failing - the volunteer are having to hire paid members for daytime response, or have paid drivers, it’s time to starting looking into a paid system, the volunteer system is no longer providing the proper coverage.

[Mack183]

Regs, Good thoughts! My only issue is and it will always be, unfortunately even if someone does get killed, that who is going to fund the Paid system? You should here residents scream and argue over a 1/2 mill increase to go to the volunteer fire service! Its a nice theory, but come on we all know it will never happen in OUR lifetimes! There is no money to fund it. A good case in point is red neckville might have 3 full time police officers and the community feels safe! They also have a volunteer fire service that some dont even know exsists until they are needed! Give them a choice of who they are going to pay and it will be the police 99.9% of the time! Some people feel Volunteers are an evil nessacity! Is this right? Absolutely not! Yes once again in both services there are flaws. This is not a fool proof system by any means, but what should we all do quit and let homes burn? A majority of us try and do our best to be proffesional and give service to the best of our abilities. Why we get knocked is because some do it half assed and dont show up at all. Yes that is probably the biggest problem and concern in our system! Most of the companies have mutual aid agreements to cover short staffing and no turnout. Its automatic! It may be like a parade at times but the times when company A cant get out the door at least companies B and C are on the way! Its not perfect but it works.

[hog]

VS...doesn`t look at it both ways.....only his......all i have to say is that if some communities go "paid" then there will be one department with 2 guys on the engine to cover an area that used to be serviced by 5 VFDs.....now you go figure

[No Fear]

Hog, just chill, everyone has an opinion even if we don't like. The us vs them will always be. Nothing you do is going to change it. Just let roll off your back and move on. Plus when are you and medic 5 going to be on Judge Judy. :

[Chia6004]

After reading some of these posts I'm happy I'm in Southern California, I'am a volie w/ RCOFD Riverside contracts w/ CDF for Fire Protection here and maintain a Volie FD as well as the paid one, We work out of the same stations run on the same equipment etc. We don't few eachother as any thing other then equals, We work together, eat together, sleep together, respond on the same appartus we have a great working relationship with are paid firefighters Its a great thing after seeing that its not the same in other parts of the country.

This is to VS, I can respect your opinion some of it is valid not all of it though, I have seen some VFC in my own county that just plain suck but I also can think of some nearby paid FD that suck as well. During the Fire Siege of 2003 I was assigned to the Paradise fire in San Diego, while I was their I saw many different Paid Fire Engines tuck tail and run leaving the homes they were supposed to protect to burn, I was on a all Volie Engine at that time working on a strike team that was all paid, we were the only volies on that strike team, we went into this one place called "Hell Hole" on are way their we passed two Paid city strike teams withdrawing from the area, It was for the best as they just would have got in our way and made our job that much harder, BTW we saved a total of 20 houses in our first 48 hours of work, that was straight mind you we held our own with the rest of our strike team.

[medic5]

Want an award?

[hog]

Want an award?
i know what your award is medic5 or should i say vollies suck......you get the coward nothing but shit talk horse`s ass award

[No Fear]

And just when you you think its over

[medic5]

Anyone smell bacon? Piggy, get your 12 year old girlfriend's hand out of your lap so you can concentrate on making sense.

[Tony Montana]

How do you remove a tic?

[Tony Montana]

Go to a career system!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chia6004]

I would expect such an ego from a medic, we all know that you arent real Firefighters anyway, your just lashing out aginst anything better then you, I wasn't going to say it but now I will City FD suck *** they were the ones running last october they are the ones who dont have a clue how to fight wild fire if I actually respected medics and city Firefighters I might listen to what your dumb *** has to say, so in conclusion STFU pansy.

[Vollies Suck]

I would expect such an ego from a medic, we all know that you arent real Firefighters anyway, your just lashing out aginst anything better then you, I wasn't going to say it but now I will City FD suck *** they were the ones running last october they are the ones who dont have a clue how to fight wild fire if I actually respected medics and city Firefighters I might listen to what your dumb *** has to say, so in conclusion STFU pansy.

And here it is, folks, the real volly attitude toward professional firefighters. They are in fact better than we are, and they do not really respect us.

Chia6004, your problem is you weren't spanked enough by your Daddy when you were a child.

By the way, here's a little question for all of you who still mount the hilarious argument that you are the equals of professional firefighters: If that is true, if you really can do everything I and my brothers do, and do it cheaper, then why do any professional firefighters have jobs??? Why wouldn't politicians in every city and town in the USA just turn over responsibility for fire protection and EMS to you "unpaid professionals", and save a whole bunch of tax dollars? Gee, do you think it's possible that maybe, just maybe, you really aren't as good as you would like to think you are???

[Chia6004]

First obviously you need to return to school and take some reading comphrension classes, I never said I consider myself superior to Paid Firefighters, I said I don't respect City Firefighters and medics, Just in case I have to specify for you any further, I respect CDF paid, USFS paid, BLM paid, RCOFD paid, LA county paid, SBCOFD paid.Thats because I work for a Wildland department and city FD's have no clue how to fight wildland fire, I've seen them stand by and allow the county, feds and State Fire Engines do all the work. During the fire siege of 03 I watched a city strike team sit, at the same spot at fire camp for five days. In that same period I saw three different strike teams from city dept's tuck tail and run when things got hot.

Your going to complain about volies not respecting you does anyone else here find that Ironic. But like I said before I have no respect for any city Firefighters so I don't care what you think. When I see you punch in the twelve thousand foot hose lay and not complain while you are doing it I might change my mind. But since all city Firefighters think their god that well never happen.

Just so you know a little about me I was working for CDF they pissed me off, I refused to play poltics so I quit, now Im in the process of getting a job with the USFS, papers will be signed next week. I'm currently a volie because I'm in between jobs, this keeps my skills up and I still get to respond to calls.

A little about my VFC, RCOFD has both staffing, paid and Vollie, we work at the same stations, respond on the same equipment, eat the same meals, train on the same tasks, perform the same duties etc. To be able to respond on a Fire Engine you must have completed a FF-T academy, two months worth, you then become a probie, after 6 months you become a full member and have two years to become a FF-C. We are paid if we are on a Fire are covering another station, yes I know they actually allow us inferior Firemen to cover paid stations oh no I'm surprised all of So Cal isn't in ashes by now. FYI I have a shift at my staion four days a week, sat-tues, the paid FF's at my station consider me the fourth man on the engine because I'am there doing all the same things they do over and over, I never miss a shift unless I'm training or take a week off, kinda like a vacation.

So in conclusion, read throughly and then try to respond, you just make yourself look like a moron when you don't, I don't consider myself superior to paid Firefighters, I consider my dept superior to City FD's plain and simple, Cities are good at what they do, which aint much, just stay away from wildland Fire Control cause you have no clue what the difference between a simple and progressive hoselay is.

Just in case you need more help VS read my first post, I said that there are many VFC's w/ issues, I know alot of Voulnteer Firefighters who aren't ****, but I also know many paid Firefighters who suck as well.

I'm willing to let this thread die, I started as a volunteer FF. before I moved on that's why I'm so defensive of them, you think we, even though I have been and will be a paid FF again I still consider myself a Volie, suck that's your right to think that way I think that City FD's suck and that's my right we wont change eachothers mind so its pointless to argue about it. I therefore offer my hand to you and hope we can put this incident behind us were both FF regardless of if you want to think that way are not.

[SouthsideLadderMan]

And here it is, folks, the real volly attitude toward professional firefighters.

I am not defending that posters obviously un-educated comments, however, I can see how a Volunteer in a Combination System may not have a Mutual Respect for someone who constantly calls him a "Tick" or a "SCAB."

I could care less. The Career Staff assigned to the Station I volunteer with rarely see the inside of a Firetruck in a 24-hour shift anyway. So they don't affect me. 90% of the time, I don't even acknowledge their presence. With the exception of a couple of the guys, most of them are newer employees. They come in, ride calls, collect thier compensation every two weeks and keep their opinions to themselves.

It keeps the fighting and bickering to a minimum and things run smoother when we don't interact alot.

[Feelin' Lucky]

And here it is, folks, the real volly attitude toward professional firefighters. They are in fact better than we are, and they do not really respect us.


that is ONE person's attitude. Just because some of us don't agree with everything you say, doesn't mean we think we're better or don't respect you.

[Chia6004]

Ok everyone, please read the entire post before you respond, as I said above I don't consider myself superior to paid FF, hell I'am one. All I said was is that I don't consider city FD's my equal at wildland fire control, VS put words in my mouth to help him win an argument, I challenge him to find the spot where I said "I'am better then paid firefighter's". I wasn't even talking to him to begin with, unless he has multiple acounts, he then decided to jump down my throat, so I was obligated to respond.

As for the post above that said my view's are ''un-educated comments'', I used to respect all FD's, I then saw that City dept's don't have a clue how to fight wildfire, I saw it last Oct, In May, In June and July. Also the fact that it was a city FD that almost got me and my crew killed in May, we were punching in a hoselay on a steep slope when these moron's, decided to fire out below us, we almost didn't make it to are safety zone before the fire got there, one guy on my crew took some radiant heat burns, That is why I don't respect city dept's. Like the saying goes, "I'd be gay before I work Schedule A''.

As VS has said he doesn't respect people that he doesn't consider his equal, so why must I respect those who are not my equal in what I do.

[regs1]

Hog:

I put my two cents in here, first of all medic5 and VS are not the same person. I been in debates with both, and each have their own style of writing, and more important opinions. So please address and debate each one in their own right.

Chia6004-

You have your own opinion of paid fire department, it seems to be based on the west coast, in a way you’re the same as VS, take your experience, and then apply it to the rest of the US.
I personally have a lot of respect for wildland F/F’s, but understand one thing, a city fire department has zero experience in forest fires. If I put you in a fire that is located on the 15th floor of a 30 floor high rise, gave you some basic equipment, and told you to put it out, and did nothing else, I can bet that I be carrying your crew out feet first.
These two types of firefighting are unique, and basically have nothing in common. Just look at the basic equipment each one uses. If anyone if to blame about your experience with paid city F/F’s, blame your fire boss, or the IC who in charge, he should have realize that the city guys, were ill trained, and most likely ill equipped to do wild land firefighting.
I am from the east coast, my wild land experience consist of pine barren fires, and the most they will burn is 10 acres, and put out in hours not days. The city department I work in, I have about 10 minutes of training on grass fires. We have zero equipment for wild land firefighting because we have none, and except in a command ICS system training that is based on the large forest fires on the west coast, I do not have a clue on forest fire tactics. This also pretty well speaks for most of major cities training and equipment on the east coast.

You are correct, city firefighters are not wildland forest firefighter, but again wildland forest firefighters are not city firefighters. You just cannot compare the two.

[hog]

regs1......if they aren`t the same person i will be surprised.........and the biggest thing i want to say is VS and medic5 both are the lowest .....neither one is professional.....if they were they wouldn`t be posting garbage about how great they are and how bad everyone eles is.....i don`t respect them .......neither one is better than anyone on TWD both are cowards and talk shit on people then hide behind their computer screen......also Medic5 thought it would be funny to post untrue things........that is the biggest problem i have......if people are going to post something you had better make sure that it is true becauser all this baby fucking shit is bullshit......

[medic5]

Piggy, try again. First, we're not the same person. Second, I never said I was better than a volunteer. I only said I was better than you, because I can read and write in comprehensible English. I don't need to borrow other people's insults. You are a crybaby. You just cannot take people making fun of you; but you feel that it is ok to flame others. You're probably the type of redneck who sits at the fire company meetings and holds the company back 20 some years because people want to try new things by voting against them. Just how you express yourself on here shows that easily. Anyways, I'm sick of playing with you. You are unoriginal and have no wit, plus you can't take it. Maybe you'll read this when you get back from WalMart, I heard they're having a sale on women's underwear and wifebeaters. :D

[hog]

first of all medic5 shut your mouth because everything that comes out is a lie...when you say someone done something that is criminal and don`t have proof you need to go behind the woodshed...and like i said you are welcome to come visit anytime...oh yea i forgot all talk

[No Fear]

Hell with Judge Judy, Its MTV Death match time, with tonight participants Hog and Medic 5, Lets get it on.

[medic5]

LMAO! He'd win, because I'd be doubled over with laughter watching his piggly ass waddle into the ring. Anyways, I'd be scared to go behind the woodshed with you. Taking into consideration all of your ramblings of homosexual acts and whatnot, I'm sure one or two of those things would cross your mind given the chance. Nasty!

[Vollies Suck]

regs1......if they aren`t the same person i will be surprised.........and the biggest thing i want to say is VS and medic5 both are the lowest .....neither one is professional.....if they were they wouldn`t be posting garbage about how great they are and how bad everyone eles is.....i don`t respect them .......neither one is better than anyone on TWD both are cowards and talk shit on people then hide behind their computer screen......also Medic5 thought it would be funny to post untrue things........that is the biggest problem i have......if people are going to post something you had better make sure that it is true becauser all this baby fucking shit is bullshit......

You know, sometimes you just can't help but laugh at some of the things this guy posts.

First, I have never said I am "great". Second, I have never said "everyone else is bad". I have said that delegating responsibility for fire protection and EMS to people who might or might not be available when needed is not a good idea, and that all else being equal, a professional fire protection system is far superior to a volunteer system. I stand by those comments.

Hog has a "problem" with people posting "untrue things"...but he has accused me, Medic 5, and anyone else who disagrees with him of getting our jobs because we "knew or blew" someone. He has repeatedly alleged that we commit homosexual fellatio (Hog, that means you've accused us of blowing other men) and he accuses us of being "unprofessional". Something about a pot and a kettle comes to mind...

Keep going Hog, you're just digging the hole deeper.

[Vollies Suck]

First obviously you need to return to school and take some reading comphrension classes...Your going to complain about volies not respecting you does anyone else here find that Ironic...all city Firefighters think their god that well never happen...Just so you know a little about me I was working for CDF they pissed me off, I refused to play poltics so I quit, now Im in the process of getting a job with the USFS...So in conclusion, read throughly and then try to respond, you just make yourself look like a moron when you don't....

Well, gee whiz, Chia, I would never want an English scholar like you to think I'm a moron.

Tell you what...I'll enroll in those comprehension classes if you promise to go back and repeat 2nd grade grammar and spelling.

[Vollies Suck]

Chia, here's another thought for you. Regs 1 was right with his observation that if you found yourself inside a burning high-rise, you'd end up being carried out feet first. You might not respect me because I am only a city firefighter and not a bush-whacker like yourself, but I guarantee that if you spent a shift in the 'hood with me you'd pee your pants.

Thanks for verifying that California is the land of squirrels and nuts.

[Hells Guardian]

Hog you gotta be the dumbest ass around its no wonder these guys get on your shit all the time! You bitch and moan about people callin you out yet you do it right back! I think maybe you ought to just disappear and let these things die! Go play with you HH fire trucks and leave the intelligent conversation to those that can hold one! Oh and Hog by the way I'm a volunteer and don't think I'm better than anyone. I do my job get home alive and dont worry about poundin my chest and tellin everyone, "Hey look at me, I'm a hero". If VS looks down his nose at me oh well just someone i never met and never will. His opinion is his own. I do think he is wrong to downgrade all volleys but look at the BS you give him. Hell its easy with the shit your posting! Just let it die! Until municipalities decide to pony up the money for all paid departments this will never end. I'll sleep well tonite, how bout you!

[Chia6004]

VS

I don't know why you continue to feel the need to use degrading comments about me personally, perhaps it makes you feel better about yourself :confused: are perhaps you are intimidated by the fact that their are vollies out there that are better then you at something related to fire control.

BTW i did work at a schedule A station for 10 months, they averaged 3,000 calls a year, the normal city FD stuff, MA's, TC's, Structure Fires etc, I just prefer wildland fire control so I went back to it, also I got tired of picking grandma off the floor at 4AM.

FYI VS I'am no English major nor do I pretend to be one, If I was writing my senior thesis here I would proof read it several times, I'am not however so I do not feel the need to take an additional 15-30 minutes to proof read and make minor adjustments to my post.

As of this moment I'am retracting my previous statements about city FD's, you are good at what you do, I have always known that I just allowed the heat of the moment to cloud my judgement. I have the utmost respect for any person who is willing to jump on an engine and ride fire. However with that said I will never respect city FFs in the area of wildland, put simply they are not my equal when it comes to wildland fire control, but most of them think they are, I'am not making this up the city FD's in So Cal think that just because they are Firefighters here they know how to fight wildfire. However I do know that I'am not your equal when it comes to high rise fires I have never been on one nor do I have anything more then a basic understanding of it.

So to VS you have my apologies we are both brothers even though we are a different breed, I will leave the multiple alarm structure fires, and 4 in the morning BS MA's to the pro's if you will leave the 450k acre veg fires to the pros. :)