postive pressure attack

[firemanwonka]

I am looking for Info on Postive Pressure Attack:

What Depts use PPA
any pros/cons

personal experinces

[Jim911Fire]

I have tried it a few times. The fires did not get out of control once the fan was in place. Freash cool air made it more tenable inside for the firefighters and any possible victims. If the fire had already self vented say out a window, then this merely helped to further ventilate the structure. This tactic may not work for all situations.

[X710]

Ya brother you need to be careful I have seen it done with great stops and i've seen it burn them down .... it does help with overhaul in finding hot spots. Read practice and practice some more on training fires you will see the differences.

[Nicholson]

Just Don't Do It.

It's A Bad Idea That Won't Go Away.....................

[firemanwonka]

Just Don't Do It.

It's A Bad Idea That Won't Go Away.....................



Can I ask Why ?

[allpro]

WHY?

There are three things fire needs; heat, oxygen, and fuel. Now, you wouldn't add wood or gasoline to a fire? Why would want to add air under pressure? The only thing those fans are good for is smoke removal after the fire is out (apartments).

To all of thos that say it helps with the heat and the visibility. I say that is what your gear is for and with fire there is smoke, deal with it.

[firemanwonka]

Sorry Allpro but I was Just Wondering about since I heard it popular tactic out west and was how they use it in supperssion.I have no problem in dealing with heat and smoke. so does any one have training videos or of actual fire attack uusing this method ?

[mohican]

WHY?

There are three things fire needs; heat, oxygen, and fuel. Now, you wouldn't add wood or gasoline to a fire? Why would want to add air under pressure? The only thing those fans are good for is smoke removal after the fire is out (apartments).



To all of thos that say it helps with the heat and the visibility. I say that is what your gear is for and with fire there is smoke, deal with it.


helping reduce heat and increase visibility can raise the chance of survival for people stuck in the building - it isn't just for firefighters safety

kinda like saying CAFS is worthless for interior work because it raises the room temperature too much :rolleyes:

PPV might not be the end all/be all, but nothing in firefighting truly is. It is a good tool in the toolbox, so to speak.

[allpro]

PFD3501:

If you place a PPV fan at the entrance of a house on fire. How are you going to keep the fire from spreading to other parts of the house? Also, what about the heat and smoke being pushed throughout the house? I understand making the most of your equipment, but thats one thing I would not do.

[firemanwonka]

Well Allpro, If Fire attack and ventilation are coordited then you should have no problem, remember back to the basics of fire attack that if both things are done togther equals success

[mohican]

PFD3501:

If you place a PPV fan at the entrance of a house on fire. How are you going to keep the fire from spreading to other parts of the house? Also, what about the heat and smoke being pushed throughout the house? I understand making the most of your equipment, but thats one thing I would not do.

allpro - many departments use this technique for ventilation - It doesn't fit all fires and structures - kinda like using class a foam on ar-afff fire - it doesn't indict the proper use of class a foam

if the ppv fan is spreading the fire out of your control, then you have bigger problems than ventilation

ppv, like negative pressure is a horizontal vent technique. PPV can be effective as a room by room method - by what other openings you leave, you control the direction of the ventilation

[allpro]

PFD3501; It just doesn't seem worth the time or chance to do such an operation. First you would have to practive and prepare for that kind of tactic. How could you prepare for something thats so unpredictable? How can you control windows and dors ahead of the fire? What do you do when the line is in place, but the unit with the fan has not arrived? How about staffing? I'm all for progress, but at what exspense? I think some people make this out to be more than it is. Modern fire fighting has not changed in about 100 years. During that time equipment has allowed us to go in further and stay longer. Keep it simple; advance the proper line vent ahead of the fire(driver) and extinguish aggressively.

[mohican]

PFD3501; I Modern fire fighting has not changed in about 100 years. .......

that statement brings to mind the saying "firefighting, 100 years of tradition unipeded by progress"

Things have changed greatly in firefighting in 100 years

Building construction
Building materials
types of materials in the building
changes in insulation and airtightness

to name a few

clearing a building with proper ppv is not chasing a fire, it's controlling where you want the fire to go. Proper ventilation increases viability of victims in the fire.

[Jim911Fire]

I'm sure everyones engines are short on spare room in compartments, but we carry ppv fans on every engine and truck. Things have changed over the years...heck not that long ago folks were going in without scba. As for ppe getting us in further and longer, I personally feel thats a bad thing. As our ppe becomes top notch, we are placing ourselves in more danger by being in places we should not be. Too deep inside, too hot, too long, all because of ppe improvements. These are all tools, lets use them wisely though.

[HOLD WITH US]

I'm sure everyones engines are short on spare room in compartments, but we carry ppv fans on every engine and truck. Things have changed over the years...heck not that long ago folks were going in without scba. As for ppe getting us in further and longer, I personally feel thats a bad thing. As our ppe becomes top notch, we are placing ourselves in more danger by being in places we should not be. Too deep inside, too hot, too long, all because of ppe improvements. These are all tools, lets use them wisely though.

Let me get this straight. You carry fans on your Engine Companies. Didnt anyone tell you that ventilation is the Ladder Company or Resque Squads job?

Holy shit man. You probably think CAFS works great too? CAFS is nothing more then another salesmans way for you to bullshit the public and not admit to staffing issues. You can do the same thing with the proper aplication of water.

Another member of the "Retardation of Americas Firefighters" club.

[PICK UP MY LINE]

Holy shit man. You probably think CAFS works great too? CAFS is nothing more then another salesmans way for you to bullshit the public and not admit to staffing issues. You can do the same thing with the proper aplication of water.
FUCKING RIGHT!!! I've been sayin that, and no one will listen. It's a band aid on staffing problems. And about the PPV fans for fire attack... There's a very good video out there of what happens when you do this. Nearly killed 5 guys. "But the salesman said it would work great!?!" I could sell you a bag of shit if it had a roto ray on it, I used big words, and it was shiny.

[CharlesUFarley]

just a comment on those that think that the way they do it will fully staffed dedicated engine and truck companies is the only way..........

Let me get this straight. You carry fans on your Engine Companies. Didnt anyone tell you that ventilation is the Ladder Company or Resque Squads job?

Holy shit man. You probably think CAFS works great too? CAFS is nothing more then another salesmans way for you to bullshit the public and not admit to staffing issues. You can do the same thing with the proper aplication of water.

Another member of the "Retardation of Americas Firefighters" club.

Hmmm
sounds like a case of "all I do is fight far off hydrant"

Tactics, believe it or not can be adjusted to fit the department and the setting.
A lot of rural departments don't have a ladder, let alone a ladder company

Often in rural departments the fans will be carried on the engine, rescue or a utility.

Once you get off hydrant, CAFS is very worthwhile

Even in a hydranted city, Cafs will cut down on water usage

proven technology

Kinda like PPV - not the cure all for everything, but very effective in it's own niche.

I've never seen CAFS been touted as a man power reducer

Its meant to cut down of water usage, and to gain quicker knockdown.

The navy has used variations of CAFS since WWII to put out ship fires that would make you wet your pants.

Cafs does work great. I've seen CAFS knockdowns where the engine barely used water from the booster tank.

If you think it's a salesmens gimmick, then you used it or seen it used properly.

PPV isn't meant as a staffing reducer either.

Its a means, given the proper conditions and tactics to clear a room and reduce temps quickly.

Tell ya what

You don't want to use it, fine by me.

I'll use it where warranted.

[CharlesUFarley]

I've been sayin that, and no one will listen.
.

cuz everyone starts to tune out ignorance after a while :D

[PICK UP MY LINE]

Cuts down on water usage? If you apply your water to the seat of the fire, in an amount large enough to overcome the BTU's being produced by the fire, it wil go out. And fast! You wanna waste $50,000 on something to do a job we can already do, go ahead. And what is "all I do is fight far off hydrant"?

[mohican]

I think he was using the redneck accent for fire "far" :D

Its proven that foam, and high energy foam systems aka CAFS extinguishes fire quicker with less water. Just an onboard system like a foam pro or FoamLogix can stretch what you can do with a tank of water by 2-3 times. Class A foam, used on standard fires is a "surfactant", a surface acting agent. It can lessen molecular surface tension and allow water to penetrate further quicker into the fuel load. It also will allow water droplets to cling to the fuel, reducing run off, and lessening the chance of rekindles. CAFS uses compressed air and foam agent to break the water up into the finest possible droplets.

CAFS has already went through most of it's growing pains and it is no longer a finicky, excruciatingly expensive proposition. A lot of simple to use systems that will support multiple attack lines are now available in the 30-35K range. Over the service life of an engine, that is not that big of a price difference. You often see that much price difference on similar trucks just by changing brands.

As Farley allluded to, in rural ops water is at a premium. The proper use of foam, especially in conjunction with CAFS allows fires to be put out quicker, often with just the booster tank and not shuttled water.

[Bigg Nasty D51]

Holy shit man. You probably think CAFS works great too? CAFS is nothing more then another salesmans way for you to bullshit the public and not admit to staffing issues. You can do the same thing with the proper aplication of water.

Another member of the "Retardation of Americas Firefighters" club.


It is not about staffing it is about protecting property and not leaving a mess. Damn dude fight with foam and make life easy and fast. 3 hours compared to 10 not hard to figure out.

[PICK UP MY LINE]

3 hours compared to 10 not hard to figure out.

It takes you 3 hours on a residential fire?? I have been to entire strip malls off that didn't take 5 hours, so not sure where you get your ten hours from!

[Jake Rixner]

We tested this thing on accuired structures over 10 years ago, and the only fire it worked well on is a corner room with one door and two exterior windows. (VENTED)

In other situations it spread the fire and would have indangered trapped occupants. When discussing the data with the west coast guy who sells these fans, he decided to ignore the data, so as to sell more fans.

Allpro and his friends are exactly correct. You don't blow air onto an out-of-control fire, thats what blacksmiths do to enhance combustion to a high enough temperature to heat steel.

I can see several scenarios where this can be deadly. Cape cod style houses, ballon frame, any building with fire located in concealed spaces.

Imagine you trying to lacate the seat of the fire or searching for life when some bozo places a fan in the front door and suddenly your smoke condition turns to bright orange all around you.

just the facts, and how I view this thing. After knockdown great, but not before. Sorry guys, your still going to have to suck it up and take the pain.

Low and safe Brothers

Jake

[wsfd44]

Just happened by the thread.. We use PPV to good effect after coordinated knockdown and ventilation... We also have fans on Engines, as well as extra ground ladders... Just in case the tower doesn't get out... In a perfect world we wouldn't have that problem

Stay safe Bros

[CharlesUFarley]

...
I can see several scenarios where this can be deadly. Cape cod style houses, ballon frame, any building with fire located in concealed spaces.

Imagine you trying to lacate the seat of the fire or searching for life when some bozo places a fan in the front door and suddenly your smoke condition turns to bright orange all around you.


Jake

that's why PPV and attack are closely coordinated.......

[Squirrel Cage]

Not to mention [I]any scenario where you're not 100% positive that there are no occupants in the building/dwelling. Introducing air, under pressure, will cause the fire to do something and go someplace that it would not have otherwise. You run the risk of pushing fire onto an occupant who may be down in a hallway, or into an occupied room.

Sure, you take a window to relieve the pressure you're putting in, but anything between the fan and that window is fair game for fire spread. If a building occupant opens another window about the same time, you'll ruin their day.

PPV attack is popular with departments that do not have sufficient staffing. If you don't have enough people to perform a good primary search, venting along the way, you shouldn't turn on the fan. You could cook a viable survivor.

Just my ten cents.

[Jim911Fire]

I have a small department with only eleven stations and only one truck, covering 230 square miles. We staff our units with four. Staffing is not our reason for using PPV or CAFS, but to fight fire aggressively. I'm very thankful i'm a West Coast Fire Captain and willing to progress with the times.

You guys that don't wish to use PPV or CAFS....that perfectly fine with me. I was merely trying to tell you that we use it and it does work. You don't believe it, fine by me.

You keep busting your back side fighting them fires, I'll knock mine down quick and easy thank you.

[phyrngn]

I have very little experience with anything but PPA. That being said, I hate it. It is used recklessly on our department as the "catch all" ventilation method. Instead of performing a decent size-up, a lot of times we forgo "solid" truck ops and put the fan in the door. I do feel that it is a good tool when used properly (AFTER the fire is knocked, IMHO).

Our problem, is the lack of understanding of the concept of "pressure." Conceivably, the fan should create pressure in the structure when the air introduced meets resistance when it tries to force the products out of a "hole" that is a little smaller (this is just my simple head thinking). Unfortunately, we combine good ol' window breakin' with this tactic, and this causes a loss of the pressure and the fan becomes just that--a FAN. I'm low on the totem pole, so my opinions really don't matter, but we'll hopefully make headway someday and get everyone to understand when and when not to use this tool

On a side note, here's a pretty good video of some vertical ventilation that shows the difference that it made on this structure fire. This is not my department, just a vid I found while surfing....enjoy:

http://www.thebravestonline.com/VentJob19.html

Stay safe.