Vent

[BCFDTRUCKMAN]

Whats wrong here?

[Phantom]

That would never have happened if the Chief weren't there directing operations.:)

[Little Leather]

LOL, are they serious, my understanding from the recent class i graduated was ...to vent, use the ROOF

[Axe&Hookman]

Maybe those windows are firefighter proof. And don't you think it would be easier to check for extension on the inside by opening up the walls?

[Truckman22122]

I missed the fact that the windows were still there the first time I saw the picture. Taking the windows is much easier than cutting the side of the building apart.

In addition what good does that ground ladder in the middle of picture do if the window it is thrown to is still intact? Anybody on the inside in need of a ladder has no way to determine if there is a ladder there. In addition, if guys really need to get out fast...the window slows them down quite a bit.

Also, I'm all for effective tower operations. Venting a truss roof with a tower...great. Cutting the side of the house at about the 7 foot off the ground mark...maybe a bit excessive.

Easier way to conduct these ops. Take the windows out for ventilation. And if you need to remove the outside of the house...use a long hook. No need to cut the siding with a saw when you have hooks that can penetrate it and pull it down from a safer position on the ground.

[Little Leather]

and the fact half the people they dont have BA on lol

[ofd226]

and you need BA on while operating outside the building WHY??

[Little Leather]

go easy im still learning, i thought ya never got off the appartaus without a BA..

[Saint of Quench]

You need an SCBA for two reasons:

1. The smoke could get worse and push right onto your face if the wind changes. Andd it could be there for an extended period of time.

2. If someone iside gets the intelligent idea and starts breaking the windows out or above you I would think the added layer of protection would do you some good.

I have seen incidents where the no SCBA thing has happened on the exterior of the building for the sake of immediate rescues and firefighters who think/know that it is probably unnecessary from all their years of experience. I hope I don't get that way one day.

[ofd226]

I hope you do get like that!!

I am not advocating not using SCBA, just not in the ambient air where you should be conserving air, or when doing something outside like taking windows, throwing ladders, etc.

[Lt. Utah]

Not really sure what is going on, it might be possible that the building is an old balloon frame building that has been renovated to look brand new, they are opening up the exterior walls to get to the fire in the walls, although I don't see any charged attack lines in the immediate area.

[2EngTrk3]

That has to be a load on the stick at such a low angle. I see at least three guys on the the ladder. Although I could be wrong, I do not run a bucket and I am not sure about the loading capacity for it, but three guys, tools, and the low angle looks like overload to me.

If there are that many outside, how many are inside???
The inside conditions look pretty favorable though, unless the open door has no conection to the area where the fire is.

It appears that fire is in the wall, possible balloon const. by the alignment of the first and second floor windows. The smoke appears to be coming from the hole that the truckies cut in the side of the structure. If they would find fire in the wall, I do not see anyone holding a line outside.

I don't know when the pic was taken, but if recently, didn't anyone on the call have a TIC.

Finally, if the saw the guy on the left kicks, I would not want to be the guy heeling the ladder, the guy sticking the hook ten feet into the air, or anyone else in the way of the falling saw or ff holding it.

Just what I see....

[jpsmith2]

the low angle looks like overload to me

Nah. Looks like an E-One, probably has a minimum tip load rating of 750 pounds of personnel plus 275 pounds of equipment at 0° elevation with or without water flowing.

May even be rated higher...

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Lt. Utah
Not really sure what is going on, it might be possible that the building is an old balloon frame building that has been renovated to look brand new, they are opening up the exterior walls to get to the fire in the walls, although I don't see any charged attack lines in the immediate area.

I can live with all that, but take out the window!

[somefireguy]

At least the tower has good positioning. :D

[JHolland915]

Yes, the tower is an E-One.

Flowing water - 2 people in the bucket (500lbs + water)
Working platform - 3 people in the bucket (750lbs + equip.)

What type of occupancy is this? Notice the door to the rear of side "D" (or 4...whatever). It is equipped w/ panic hardware and a door closer. Might even have a flat roof w/ a 3' parapet. Someone from OCVFD needs to fill us in.

[to da roof]

brothers you asked for an on scene account so here it is. Ocean City was dispatched to assist Berlin on a building frie upon our arrival crews from berlin had been operating for aprox 30 mins with no success at reaching the fire,the interior of the structure was starting to collapse.We were assinged to open up the wall and locate the fire this was a brand new building and some parts had not even open up yet more on that to follow. I am one of those people in the basket it is rated for 1000 lbs we did not have any water to the stick being real truckmen thank you hose lines were in place on the ground ready for deployment which we did end up using.There was no need for the windows to be taken out the fire was between the floors in truss floor joist area you could not enter the room were the fire was anyway.Yes there was a hole put in the roof for your info.I leave you with this a snap shot is just a moment in time thank you for keeping an open mind. The cause of the fire was due to inproper installation of a vent pipe for a new bakery that had not even opened up yet.

[rescue 102]

i don't mean to stir the shit even more...but if there was no need to take out the windows, then why the hole in the roof????

[to da roof]

brother agree or disagree i follow orders and that is what the commander wanted to vertically vent besides opening up the wall, those windows should have been gone way before we got there but i should not judge i was not there right off the bat. the building was a stack shack

[to da roof]

ps the window above the basket was taken out.

[T-Dawg21Trk]

If you find yourself having to ask a chief or other officer permission to do operate at every fire, maybe you should ask yourself what you are doing in the fire service. I'm not doubting your ability, merely questioning why someone would have to ask permission to perform fireground ops,

[PimpOnDuty]

A few years ago, there was a large 10-alarm fire in the city of Philadelphia. It was a shipping & trucking warehouse. One of the exposures on the "C" side was a handful number of Volvo Tractor Trucks (Without the trailers attached.) The IC assigned Rescue 1 to protect and remove those trucks to try to save them.

The crew of Rescue 1 then established a system. One man would smash the window, another would hotwire the truck. They saved the fleet, and the warehouse owner now had a new business to fall back on besides warehousing.

The Deputy Chief asked them at the critique how they saved the trucks. They told him about the system they developed. The Chief almost hit the room when he heard that. Because obviously, hotwiring a truck isn't in any local fire school curriculum.

The moral of the story here? Initiative. The Deptuy Chief said the other night that those firefighters has initiative to do that assignment. That's what makes a good firefighter. They didn't ask how they were supposed to do it, nor were they walked through it with command. They did the job, and they were good at it.

I understand about following orders. Sometimes it's an internal struggle between initiative, and the abilty to use restraint. That makes a good firefighter too.

[Blitz Line]

There are some jurisdictions what won't let you do anything without the Chief's approval. It comes down to the IC having trust in themselves and their officer's abilities. A good IC will assign a company a task and leave it up the the company OIC to decide what the safest and most effective tactic to complete the order.

[to da roof]

well my friend i can and do think for my self thank you but in this town you dont go against the chief i am an officer and can and have thought on my own this fire had several bosses more then i like.we are all here to do a jod freelancing is not a good practice it happens but trying to limit it is all our jobs.

[sta9firstin]

I haven't read this whole thread so I'm not sure what's going on, I just looked at the picture and thought "WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY DOING IN THE BUCKET 8 FEET OFF THE GROUND." thats pretty rediculus to me. Why throw the ground ladder then????

[to da roof]

why not work off of a platform instead of putting your self in a position to fall off a groud ladder. Much better working enviroment i think.

[burnin@thebeach]

I am not going to get into whether the windows should or should not have been taken, but if the chief did not want them gone you live with it. In most jurisdictions you do vert. vent no questions asked but horizontal is done only when coordinated with the hose crew, so it is not a question of being smart enough to vent it is the fact of being smart enough to follow procedure. By the way the fire was in a truss floor system about 30 inches thick packed with non-fire resistent insulation. Unsafe to put crews under the floor inside.

[aardvark]

You stated that the fire was burning for a half hour and the interior started to collapse !!! Why the hell would you want to cut up the exterior ?? With the integrity of the interior compromised, the exterior of the building is now supporting the whole load. You may as well entirely fight this thing from the outside and screw looking for " hotspots ".

OK then, when the whole thing comes down, it takes out 20 FF's outside the building PLUS that $580,000 dollar scaffold that's being used. At THAT point, was it worth putting extra chance on a building that 1) is in jeopardy of total collapse 2) is gonna be torn down anyway ??

[Doc]

See, you all are looking way too much into it.........

The ONLY thing that's wrong in that picture is that pike pole is WAYYYY too tall for him!!!!

hee hee hee:D

[ENGINEDUDELT]

ROOF,
My only question is, why such concern for vent if the interior was collapsing. It sounds like it was already a surround and drop evolution, ladderpipes, etc...
I was a bit concerned that not many guys that are obviously manning the pre-staged attack lines did not have SCBA on, until you posted. No interior IDLH hazards then.
Not throwing punches buddy just some thoughts. Like the black PPE, just get rid of the yellow helmets.

[esfmmk]

"Easier way to conduct these ops. Take the windows out for ventilation. And if you need to remove the outside of the house...use a long hook. No need to cut the siding with a saw when you have hooks that can penetrate it and pull it down from a safer position on the ground"

The door on the bottom right looks like a heavy steel door, this may be commercial type II building with block walls, That would be one hell of a hook to get throught that.

Just a thought

[BCFDTRUCKMAN]

Why weren't the windows taken out iniatially? That should have been the 1st thing the truck co did. Open those windows up, get the smoke out and let the heat out. Simple FF tactics.

[MG3610]

Another bunch of Monday morning QB's. Doesn't look like much wrong here to me. Look closer before you throw rocks. There is what looks amazingly like a hoseline in service being managed by a FF in the background (and noticably white smoke..perhaps due to water application???), most likely being operated from the bucket. An amazing concept here, using the bucket as a stabile working platform, makes perfect sense if you can get it in there. If you look at the bldg, the guy who was there says it was truss floors. If the dimension from front to back is shorter than the end to end dimension, its probably got the trusses running front to back, therby leaving the open web most accessible by opening the side wall, as is being done. I wasn't there, can't tell yas for sure...but looks ok to me based on what I know. And for the yardbreathers that want to always be masked up...have fun breathing air in the front yard while the rest of the real firemen are getting some because they didnt waste their air. By the way, E-one has never had a documented aerial failure, they are built like cranes. That aerial is smiling and having fun!

[Saint of Quench]

Ah, now I see where everyone is having an issue with this particular aspect. Yeah, breathing air while standing around outside is a waste of precious resources. I was simply referring to the two guys standing right at the window working where the smoke is coming out. Like I said before, the use of SCBA in these cases is more rare than it should be, IMHO, but I like to factor in a little safety. Did they get hurt, probably not. Some firefighters like to take off their masks when there is light smoke that way they can feel like they're tough men. All it takes, though, is for something to go wrong on the inside and they could have anything come right at their faces. It takes all kinds in the fire service and we just accept what happens as part of the risks we face. Were the risks acceptable in this case? The answer is for each person to decide on his or her own.

[dirty sanchez]

Yard Breathers? Your probably one of those guys who has his mask on as the truck is leaving the station. That's the same clowns who run around in the front yard looking through the hole where you connect the regulator because they fogged up their masks. A real man is the one with the snot trails hanging down to his chin becuase he just got some!

[Saint of Quench]

Your opinion. Nice answer. You don't know anything about me, but nice answer nonetheless. Anyone got anything else to add?

[BCFDTRUCKMAN]

Snot trails... How comforting... will visions of snot trails streaming down your face ease the pain of your grieving wife and children as you are laid to rest at an early age? Probably not. Will those snot trails prove your worth to an old seasoned officer? Nope. The days of eatin' smoke are gone. In today's age of increased use of synthitics and plastics you are at a much greater risk of developing medical related illnesses due to this job. The old 'IRON LUNGERS" didn't have a choice. We do. Ever wonder why those old guys are so ill later on in life. So in closing, if you're gonna carry the damned thing on your back use it. If not for you, then for your family. Take care and stay safe.

[MG3610]

For Gods sake, can't you tell the guy was joking...you people need to lighten up!!!!