Best Apparatus Choice?

[13Hose]

My station is looking to buys a new engine and was wondering what would be the best choice for speed, durability and handling?

[Quacker]

My station is looking to buys a new engine and was wondering what would be the best choice for speed, durability and handling?


You company, station, county or who ever should be looking at a company that is stable and making good apparatus. American LaFrance is going under and soon Seagrave will be behind them.

I would make Pierce my choice for apparatus.


Speed? How fast do you want a fire engine to go? Anything around 60 to 65 MPH is fast enough considering the traffic and congestion of the streets and roads.

[Deuce Engine]

Scratch ALF off the list right now. You do know that they just filed Chapter 11, right?

Pierce and Seagrave are both dependable vehicles, and like anything, they both have strengths and weaknesses. A lot of it depends on your specs.

What will be the primary function of the vehicle? Give us some more info...

[S.Fey]

wow i see speed on there, what about pump size, how many gpm you can have? or are we just looking for something that goes fast

[EMT/FF99]

Handling? are you asking as in the road performance of the apparatus (IE: speed, braking power, engine braking power etc) or do you mean as in the handling power of GPMs flow on the pump?

My station is looking to buys a new engine and was wondering what would be the best choice for speed, durability and handling?

[RoofTopTrucky]

Speed is all on you and how you speck the new rig. You can build 2 identicle rigs, with same engine and transmition and change only the rear end gears. Now you would have 2 identicle engines only one would go 80 on the flat & 5 mph up hills and the other would climb hills with no problem at about 30 mph and top out at 65. Explain to the builder what you want the rig to do. Thats what we did on our last one and thats exactly what we got... Fast out of the hole....get you up to speed quick, top speed of 75 and te ability to climb hills at a decent speed.
As for handeling, you have a lttle bit of say so here. Our new Engine (mentioned above) requiered an 18,000 lb. front axle, we chose to "up grade" to a 21,000 wich gave us a fatter front tire. In doing our homework for the new engine those we talked to said that the fatter front tire gave you better handeling, so we went with it and I'd have to agree.
As far as the 3 you have mentioned. I wold say Seagrave. No ALF, not so much becasue of the chapter 11 but becasue they were just sold, and things are changing, including design, somethig I just wouldn't want to be part of. And Perce.... well I've never been much of a Pierce fan, I don't think they are as "great" as everyone makes them out to be. I know quite a few companies that have purchesed new Pierce rig and had tones of problems, hell on one Pierce flat out refused to take care of a warenty issue....untill after the law suit of course. I dunno to me they seem to have gone from caring about qulity to quantity.
Personal experiance is primaraly with Sutphen and E-One. Both build a good rig, service isn't an issue, and they both treated us great.
What ever it turns out to be...Good luck with your new Wagon

[FiremanJoeJCCFD]

Pierce makes a good truck. I ran in new york for a few years with a 92 arrow and a 99 saber. Down here in the south we have a 1991 KME we got used off a paid depatment. The truck has sceen more shit then any other truck i road on and will keep coming back for more. You can say what you want about KME but when it sees what we alone have put it thought and has yet to have a big proplem I no were i want to go for our next truck

[OrangeHelmet4]

I say pierce all the way....

[Pipeman33]

Seagrave is what you should look at. Look at all the rigs that D.C uses their all Seagrave. Trust me you won't be disappointed. Their business is great and they deliver ontime more percentage of the time then Pierce or ALF. But its all up to your departments budget and requirments on what you purchase and what company gives you the best bid for what type of truck you want to build. Good luck with your future purchase.

[FiremanJoeJCCFD]

Let me say KME's new trucks look good and I am hearing more reports on how great they are. If we get a grant for a new truck I want to see if we can go KME. I allso run with a deparment that has a 1972 mack. GOOD ENGINE

[Quacker]

Seagrave is what you should look at. Look at all the rigs that D.C uses their all Seagrave. Trust me you won't be disappointed. Their business is great and they deliver ontime more percentage of the time then Pierce or ALF. But its all up to your departments budget and requirments on what you purchase and what company gives you the best bid for what type of truck you want to build. Good luck with your future purchase.

Where you been pal freezed dried? :confused::confused:
Trust you? :eek::rolleyes: You sound like a used car saleman! :rolleyes::eek: DCFD has had Pierces for several years and have more on order and oh yes they do have some Seagrave TDA's on order.

KME's still suck and still have problems too much than any major city needs, Ask Philly about KME's!

[Engine4Member]

Speed is all on you and how you speck the new rig. You can build 2 identicle rigs, with same engine and transmition and change only the rear end gears. Now you would have 2 identicle engines only one would go 80 on the flat & 5 mph up hills and the other would climb hills with no problem at about 30 mph and top out at 65. Explain to the builder what you want the rig to do. Thats what we did on our last one and thats exactly what we got... Fast out of the hole....get you up to speed quick, top speed of 75 and te ability to climb hills at a decent speed.
As for handeling, you have a lttle bit of say so here. Our new Engine (mentioned above) requiered an 18,000 lb. front axle, we chose to "up grade" to a 21,000 wich gave us a fatter front tire. In doing our homework for the new engine those we talked to said that the fatter front tire gave you better handeling, so we went with it and I'd have to agree.
As far as the 3 you have mentioned. I wold say Seagrave. No ALF, not so much becasue of the chapter 11 but becasue they were just sold, and things are changing, including design, somethig I just wouldn't want to be part of. And Perce.... well I've never been much of a Pierce fan, I don't think they are as "great" as everyone makes them out to be. I know quite a few companies that have purchesed new Pierce rig and had tones of problems, hell on one Pierce flat out refused to take care of a warenty issue....untill after the law suit of course. I dunno to me they seem to have gone from caring about qulity to quantity.
Personal experiance is primaraly with Sutphen and E-One. Both build a good rig, service isn't an issue, and they both treated us great.
What ever it turns out to be...Good luck with your new Wagon



I had to get my spell checker out to find out some of those words you used to see what they were! :confused:

How fast do you think that you need to go? 10 miles over the highest normal posted limit is enough. You are driving a vehicle maybe with several members aboard. Do you want to kill them should you go too fast and have an accident? Besides, you sure as heck can not fight the fire until you arrive safely on the scene.

[ECC]

Let me say KME's new trucks look good and I am hearing more reports on how great they are. If we get a grant for a new truck I want to see if we can go KME. I allso run with a deparment that has a 1972 mack. GOOD ENGINE

Sorry, bro...there is a reason Kovatch has earned the moniker "Keep Mechanics Employed" as HME has earned "Have Mechanics Employed". Both have terrible consistent build quality. I have driven everything from Ward LaFrance, Mack, Ford C8000, Pierce, American LaFrance...to Rosenbauer, HME, KME, and Pierce. I have had the best PERSONAL experience with Mack, Ward LaFrance and Pierce. I have no personal experience with Seagrave.

[RoofTopTrucky]

I say pierce all the way....

Another young'en brain washed.
such a shame

[RoofTopTrucky]

KME's still suck and still have problems too much than any major city needs, Ask Philly about KME's!

Or Pittsburgh

[RoofTopTrucky]

After speck ing 3 rigs in the past year, I can say that after sitting and working with Pierce, Seagrave, E-One, Sutphen and KME We got the best tratment from E-One, they were definitly "on board" with making major modifications to the designs. We gave them a run for their money on our Engine, but they came through fro us. And the New Tiller.... they TOTALY re-designed to meet what we wanted, everything from raising the body heigth for more comparment space, increasing the capacity of the ladder tunnel to 200+ and ALL the engineering that came with it. May souldn't like only a few changes, but there is HOURS and HOURS of engineering involved. For those that don't know, there is alot more to making a change than just making the change and re-drawing it.
The others were'nt as open to making changes to body design or other ideas we had/wanted to see on our rigs. Pierce and Seagrave didn't seem interested, wich dosent make much scense since were were buying about 2.2 million worth of rigs in a 2 1/2 year times frame.
We did however award the Tanker to KME.... for 2 reasons, E-One didn't build elipticals and they were about 12K cheeper than anyone else. Now if we could do it over we would spend the extra 12K. It has been a nighmare.

At first the local dealer was fine, helped us out with what we needed.
Then while it was being build ALOT of questions started popping up.... a bunch of engineering you can't do this or thats, after of course we were told it had been through engineering and everthing has hunkey dory.
The first major problem was they, ordered the wrong cab, and by the time the cab came in and they called us, changes had been made a Kenworth sute to EPA regs and we could no longer get the cab we wanted with the motor we wanted. We setteled for a differnet cab. Had they done thier job right in the first place it wouldn't have been an issue.
Then it came time for delivery inspection. Now, we are not one of those volunteer depts. that goes in, looks to make sure it's the right color, then honk the horns and turn on the sirens an then say It's OK. We took about 8 hours going over the rig making sure EVERYTHING was right as per the spec. Every time we would find some thign that was wrong the delivery engineer would roll his eyes, sigh, or respond... ok now what. Just totaly rude. Hell ther were a few times he said, well it's already built so theres nothing we can do about it. Wich is when we got ****ty explaining to him the contract and how they were suposed to build it To speck. Apparantly he couldn't understand that got even ****tier and we almost started throwing fists. In hein sight I shouldn't just knoed his fukin teeth out, wouldn't have fixed anything but atleast i would have felt better
Now since it has been deliverd.... The DDEC pump control modual didnt work for close to 4 months...we told them, and go the "it'll be fixed right away".... like I said.. 4 months.
Shortly there after we developed two body cracks, both about 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch wide and about 1 1/2" long, we called and they were sending someone right out.....
A few weeks later while we were waiting for the someone to show up, we ended up with an electricle short that would not let you operate the rear dump chute at all and trigger the door ajar alarm. Again we called...... and again some one would be right out. It took about 3 months for that someone to comer "right out" wich was the begining of May. And of course he said they would get to fix it right away.... i told him I wouldn't hold my breath. Needless to say, now, 6 months after the cracks started, 5 months afer the electrical short and 2 months since they came to look at it, The tankerr still sits in our bays with nothing fixed. We call and leave messages, or if we are lucky enought to talk to someon they tell us they're working on it, or some other lame excusse, that goes for both te Main office and the local dealer.
So take of it what you will.... but that is my expierance. I have seen some nice KME's roll off the line, I put it this way, they are consistantly inconsistant, and when they're bad they're really bad. I've talk to quite a few other local depts that have had problems with theirs too but I won't speek for them.
That about explains it. Sorry so long.

[OrangeHelmet4]

Another young'en brain washed.
such a shame

LOL... I really think that Pierce is a great rig. I also like Sutphen, E-ONE, and Segrave.

[east66Side]

First things First.

Regardless of the the builder, anything built by man is subject to failure.

Also regardless of the builder, you can spec out the same powertrain in most cases:
Detroit Diesel, Allison Trans, Joe Blow Rear, etc.

From there it comes down to what you need to do with your truck, prior to the 2008 Spartan Gladiator / 4-Guys Rescue Pumper we just got, the last 3 trucks our department purchaed were E-One's (2 Engines and a Heavy Rescue).

It is my understanding that E-One was not willing to work with our truck committee and their requests. When you are dropping 400k, you want a truck that works for you! 4-Guys built a truck to suit our needs, etc.

From a personal side, I love the Spartan Cab. The creature comforts are much better, solid, quiet, comfortable, more automotive like. The fit and finish is also automotive like, closed hinges, no seams or drip edges on the cab.

[r131v]

Where you been pal freezed dried? :confused::confused:
Trust you? :eek::rolleyes: You sound like a used car saleman! :rolleyes::eek: DCFD has had Pierces for several years and have more on order and oh yes they do have some Seagrave TDA's on order.

KME's still suck and still have problems too much than any major city needs, Ask Philly about KME's!

Ask Philly about KME's,guess what they just ordered? A handfull of pumpers and a few ladders from an OEM in Nesquehoning, PA

[RoofTopTrucky]

Ask Philly about KME's,guess what they just ordered? A handfull of pumpers and a few ladders from an OEM in Nesquehoning, PA

ONe thing we all have to remember with just about any Big City Fire Apparatus Fleet is that alot of the times the FD gets little or no say in what they're going to get and it's all about the low numbers. In PA it says that when you go out to bid that the winner shall be the lowest responsible bidder, however alot of bean counters convianantly skip over the responsible part. I know this becasue had the word respopnsible not beeb there our newest rig would have been a KME but they fucked the bid all up, then of course blamed us, I can remeber talking to a sales rep who called me to bich after the bid was awarded, I told him they didn't even spec the computer.... he said you didn't speck one, I told him to flip to a cerian page in the spec and look.... he did.... then got real silent for a moment then started in on something else, none-the-less had they been a responsible bidder as well as lowest we would be wheeling around a KME. (thank god they lost)

Another thing that some cities do is when they go out to bid, they include with the award ofthe bid a X year long contract that says for X amount of years after the inital bid they want to order more fire trucks, they will contact the winning bidder. This helps keep from having to go out ot bid every time ,and helps to keep the fleet "standardized" Now if KME wins the bid and the contract then they will provide rigs for that city for x abount of years, and if the first set of rigs delivered are gian pieces of shit, depending on how the bid and contract were written, they are stuck with them untill the contract is up, or if they are pieces of shit the FD can bitch all they want, it's up to the bean counters as to weather they want to cancel the contract, and if the price is good enough, then the cheeper truck wins.

[GoshenFF]

Pierce's slogan says it all. "Perform like no other"

[RoofTopTrucky]

Pierce's slogan says it all. "Perform like no other"

Can't argue that slogan, I can't think of any other mfgs. besides them that are such giant pieces of shit :D

[iamhere]

We have two KME's. Love them both. One is an 84, the other is a 2007.

[FiremanJoeJCCFD]

I love Pierce and KME. But with our buget we will take anything that can go down the road and pump haul water and just be a good truck. Hell I would take a 70's mack that saw its better days put a polly tank it the sucker go though it and use it for 10 more years.

[capn294]

when your chillen in the day room, pick up your local firetruck trader magazine, and flip threw it, you'll see almost every manufacture represented their in those pages, but i have never seen a newer seagrave (15 years old or newer) in their, you see pierce, kme ,alf , and all the rest of the mom and pop builders, I really like seagrave, and pierce, but with the puc, you are in pump all the time, not too crazy about that, has to be really hard on the pump.

[Deuce Engine]

] I really like seagrave, and pierce, but with the puc, you are in pump all the time, not too crazy about that, has to be really hard on the pump.

Incorrect, the PUC's pump is not always engaged. The pump is engaged through a different system than a standard midship pump, but it's not always on.

The PUC uses a REPTO (rear engine power-take-off) that uses a shaft that comes directly off the back of the engine to engage the pump. Standard pumpers use the driveshaft off the transmission to do this. However, the PUC's REPTO is only engaged when the driver engages it, and the vehicle can not be driven at highway speed with the REPTO on.

[capn294]

thanks, learn something new everyday, must have missed understood the rep. good to know.

[RoofTopTrucky]

Incorrect, the PUC's pump is not always engaged. The pump is engaged through a different system than a standard midship pump, but it's not always on.

The PUC uses a REPTO (rear engine power-take-off) that uses a shaft that comes directly off the back of the engine to engage the pump. Standard pumpers use the driveshaft off the transmission to do this. However, the PUC's REPTO is only engaged when the driver engages it, and the vehicle can not be driven at highway speed with the REPTO on.

with the exception of it being rear PTO sounds alot like how a hydraulic genorator is "powered"

[Gabesrmsi]

pierce no questions asked