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DCFD1310
08-07-2009, 10:48 AM
Colliers Mansion Conditions-

“What are Collier’s Mansions Conditions &
How Do They Effect Firefighting Operations? ”

“Collier’s Mansion Conditions” describes the home of a “pack rat”. The residents of these occupancies are considered compulsive hoarders.

“Compulsive hoarding (or pathological hoarding) is the acquisition of, and failure to use or discard, such a large number of seemingly useless possessions that it causes significant clutter and impairment to basic living activities such as mobility, cooking, cleaning, showering or sleeping. A person who engages in compulsive hoarding is commonly said to be a "pack rat", in reference to that animal's apparent fondness for material objects.”-Wikipedia.org Quote

A Google search of the internet will yield plenty of reading for those interested. Attached are two links to web-sites with interesting articles that tell the story of The Collyer Brothers of Harlem, New York City. This was probably the first major publicity for someone suffering with Compulsive Hoarding Disorder. Although the Collyer brothers spelled their last name with a “y”, some of the information about this condition is spelled with an “i”.

http://bellcurveoflife.blogspot.com/2008/03/fascinating-story-of-collyers-mansion.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyer_brothers

The effects of Collier’s Mansion Conditions on firefighting operations:

Collier’s Mansion Conditions impact our firefighting operations due to the amount of debris or clutter accumulated by these individuals. Working in, around, and against all of the debris will lengthen the time needed to complete most firefighting operations. The following list has a few examples of what firefighting operations may be slowed down due to the overwhelming amount of clutter that will have to be dealt with.

Forcible Entry- clutter and debris may block access through doors and or windows. Don’t forget to consider alternate methods, such as breaching a wall.

Hoseline Placement and Advancement- the stacks of clutter will limit the area you have to flake out the line, the path that you will have to advance the line, and you may inadvertently knock over clutter and debris while advancing or operating the line. Breaching walls from an attached exposure may be an alternative tactic used to attack the fire.

Horizontal and Vertical Ventilation- If the clutter and debris is stacked to the ceiling it may affect vertical ventilation. Imagine if you push the ceiling down after cutting the roof, you can see the debris is stacked high and affecting a good flow of heat and smoke out of your vent opening, do you risk pushing over a stack of clutter for good ventilation and possibly push it onto interior crews searching and or attacking the fire? Horizontal ventilation may be ineffective due to clutter stacked next to the windows. You may have to pull mountains of clutter out the window to make ventilation effective.

Egress- The primary means of egress will suffer from the stack effect if too many troops are operating in one area and everyone needs to leave in a hurry. Using a window as a secondary means of egress may be an issue. Will the window be blocked by debris and clutter if the backroom lights off while I’m searching?

Searches- You’re mental picture may change as more crews operate in the fire area. The debris and clutter may move when other crews operate in the fire area. Some clutter may be moved out of necessity or by accident, never the less your mental blueprint that you memorized on your way in, is now different and may disorient you on your way out.

Removal of fire victims- The removal of any occupants can be challenging under normal conditions. Now add in all of the debris and clutter, and removing a victim may become extremely difficult.

Overhaul- Overhaul will be an extended operation. Debris may have to be moved to open ceilings and walls. This may hamper getting ahead of the fire. You know what a truck work fire is, normally in a wood-frame dwelling, and you have to open up ahead of the fire to cut it off. So imagine trying to open up ahead of the fire in a 2 ½ story Wood Frame Dwelling of balloon construction with clutter and debris blocking your every move.

The list of possibilities may be endless, but one sure bet is that all firefighting operations will take more time to accomplish.

The limited amount of space to work in, may dictate that fewer members be placed in any one area of operation. An apartment fire with “Pack-Rat” conditions may limit operations in that apartment to one engine, one truck, and the squad. The back-up line may be staged in the hallway, across the hall, or any area that places the second line close to the fire area, but out of the way of operating crews. Crews performing overhaul may rotate due to space considerations and length of the time required to perform overhaul. The secondary search will certainly be a squadman’s nightmare. Look how long it took to find the second (stinking) Collyer brother when there was no fire to contend with. What if the hoarder was a new mother and you were searching for an infant under these conditions?

The above list is by no means complete. Instead, it is a list of possibilities to get your mind moving.

Where are you assigned? What are your fireground assignments? How will “Collier’s Mansion Conditions” or “Pack-Rat Conditions” affect you as you carry out your duties?

Semper Fidelis,
Demon Leader 4

dcfdsid
08-07-2009, 11:06 AM
This was actually the topic of a Battalion meeting/critique we had a few months ago in the 2nd after a fire in SE.

Thankfully our BFC informed us that he prefered us to use the term PACK RAT conditions over the radio instead of Collyer Conditions or Syndrome.

Not sure if we could all remember that phrase at 0245 in the morning and even more so how many of us would have understood, but everyone knows PACK RAT.

sid

? BUCKY IS HERE
08-07-2009, 11:55 AM
WTF a fucking pack rat is a pack rat, just like a fucking BUM is a bum all these politically correct terms SUCK!!!!!

DCFD1310
08-07-2009, 03:25 PM
WTF a fucking pack rat is a pack rat, just like a fucking BUM is a bum all these politically correct terms SUCK!!!!!

BUCKY,

The Collyer Brothers are the "OG's" when it comes to Pack-Rats. I never said the DCFD should adopt the term "collier's mansion". I just put the information out there for others if interested. If "we have pack-rat conditions" is the DCFD way, then I'm in. A couple of people asked about the term, so I put it out there. My interest is how it affects interior firefighting operations. I'm not too concerned with what term the DCFD uses on the radio, as long as we are all on the same page when someone transmits "pack-rat conditions"!

I have no idea how you leaped into the term being politically correct. It doesn't have anything to do with U.S. or D.C.F.D. politics! It's not meant to be polite by calling it a Collyer's Mansion. That's like saying "halligan bar" is politically correct because it's named after Hugh Halligan???

I'd go into a blaze with you anyday, but there are times I wonder what you are doing with that Neanderthal head of yours? (see attached photo) :D

Your Friend,
RON

Styles
08-07-2009, 03:59 PM
Oh look a picture of Donnie Mayhew...aka "the Caveman".

E G McGuire
08-07-2009, 07:55 PM
So Bucky, I guess we can still refer to you as an inbred, right? And your trailer is still a trailer? It isn't a mobile estate, is it?

As far as trying to assist Lt. Kemp with his constructive Watchdesk thread, I have a heads up for 4th Battalion companies. The end unit rowhouse on the NW corner of 8th and Marrietta NW had the worst Collyers - Packrat - Hoarding - Whatever - conditions I have ever seen. In fact, it was pretty much impossible to get inside, so it was safe for us in the event of fire - the Delta exposure would be our first priority. In fact the owner packed another house around 5th and Taylor NW so full of stuff that a few years a wall fell off and the city tore it down. Anyway, yesterday the 8th street address was being emptied out by the city, so now that it is vacant and accessible to us in the event of a fire, it is a very real hazard, so be careful.

footsoldier
08-08-2009, 12:51 PM
with the increased fire load, i would consider a smooth bore vs. a fog, for more penetration. the fire might be so deep seated that your 1 1/2 is not going to get it done.

Brooks
08-08-2009, 04:51 PM
Point of order - a smoothbore nozzle at 50 psi and 200 gpm is going to have less "penetration" than a Combination Fog & SS nozzle, on straight stream, at 100 psi & 200 gpm. It's a moot point, since we don't really have the option of a 200 gpm fog nozzle.

More to the point, eventually, the limiting factor for what an attack team can flow is the nozzle reaction, I'd trade psi for gpm in a "pack-rat" situation, and go for a smoothbore as well.

It's pretty well considered that a 2 person nozzle team can operate a 1 1/8" nozzle at 50 psi nozzle pressure, and that a 3rd would likely be necessary to operate a 1 1/4" nozzle. This sets our 2 person limit somewhere 95 and 117 lbs-force nozzle reaction. There are techniques for exceeding this in a static operation, and for incorporating static operation into advancing a hose line, but, for our purposes, we can limit our attack line nozzle reaction to about 100 lbs-force.

Conveniently, a 1 1/8" nozzle at 50 psi has a reaction force of 95 pounds, and flows 266 gpm.

Interestingly, a 1 1/4" nozzle at 43 psi has a reaction force of 100 pounds, and flows 303 gpm.

An 1 3/8" nozzle at 35 psi has a reaction force of 100 pounds, and flows 333 gpm.

Unfortunately, putting these lines on big (2 1/2", 3") hand lines makes them very slow, and give the opportunity for a wagon driver to very easily overpower the crew on the line. These lines, at these flows, simply don't have much friction loss, and it's easy to flow too much by being off just a little bit at the pump panel.

For example, with a 200' 2.5" line and a 1 1/4" tip at 42 psi, and no head gain/loss, the correct engine pressure is 78 psi. If the WD guesstimates this at 125 psi - a fairly low EP for DCFD operations - the nozzle pressure would be 67, and the nozzle reaction would be 157 pounds - more than half again what it was supposed to be, and well over what 2 firefighters can reliably advance.

However, if we put that same nozzle on a 250' 2.0" line, the appropriate engine pressure is 189 gpm - more in line with DCFD interior operations pressures. If the WD got froggy and pumped it at 220 psi, the nozzle pressure would only jump to 49.5 psi, and the nozzle reaction only jumps by 16 pounds, to 116 psi.

If we were to buy "new" technology nozzles that can operate with variable orifices, such as the "Vindicator" nozzle tested not long ago by FDNY, we end up with an even wider spread of "acceptable" engine pressures. With some creative mixing and matching of 2 1/2" and 2" hose sections, a line could be created that was packed as a 400' line, but could be safely broken at any length down to 200', and still maintain a 250+ gpm line, all on a single engine pressure, like 190 psi. Put another way, the "big line" on the back of the wagon could be packed like a 400'. If you need less, break it at less. No matter what, you'll get a decent stream if you pump it at 190 psi.

While I strongly support replacing our 2 1/2" attack lines with 2" or 2" & 2 1/2" mixed lines, we still need to maintain 3" or 2 1/2" hose on the wagons, so that we can have low engine pressure yard lines. When we're trying to flow big water, we typically want to keep our engine pressures down below 150 psi, so they can flow their full rated flow. In such cases, for static lines, a 3" hose and a smoothbore nozzle can't be beat.

footsoldier
08-09-2009, 11:37 AM
umm I just thought a smooth bore would dig a little deeper than a CVFSS would. Professor Brooks I will never be as smart as you.

Brooks
08-09-2009, 01:37 PM
It's not all it's cracked up to be.

dcfdsid
08-11-2009, 11:20 AM
So Bucky.....

Lets talk about the Pack Rat conditions you guys encountered on 3rd street NE the other night..

And yes you guys, Bucky admitted it was a Collyer's Mansion type fire. I heard it with my own ears at 0545 in the officers bunk room at E8 on 08/10/09


sid

Judge Smales
08-11-2009, 12:02 PM
There is a certain young "boy chief" on the job that has a penchannt for calling them "rat pack" conditions. My gues is that he encountered a lot of Dean Martins, Frank Sinatras and Sammy Davis jr.'s in there!!

(most of you are probably too young to get it!)

footsoldier
08-11-2009, 02:00 PM
hey judge you forgot peter lawford and joey bishop

DCFD1310
08-12-2009, 09:40 AM
Oh, I see "Rat Pack Conditions", someone must be from Hoboken!