Hey DC Fire

[DC1010]

Just fyi-
Someone recently posted a message onto The Public Safety HIV Support Network (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7zu09/) from here (DCFD) stating:

FROM: A D.C. Fire Paramedic LOCATION: D.C.

Dear PSHSN & Scott-
Where do you "get-off" telling people that they shouldn't be wearing rubber gloves on calls? It's no wonder you are HIV+. I wish you would consider removing "The Healing Touch" from your website... so the rest of us aren't influenced and follow in your path! GLOVES SAVE!

[DrNapalm]

And?

The "Healing Touch" is not something that should be practiced by EMTs & Medics. Leave it to Doctors and Nurses in a controlled environment. This is a field of uncertainties and "waiting" to put on ones gloves until they are need is absurd, by then it may be too late. As for me I will ALWAYS glove up, I refuse to put myself or my family at risk.

[PSHSN]

Dr Napalm-
I seriously doubt that you are a real "doctor"... so where do you "get off" making your comments (I realize that this is a free country and you are entitled and all), but what is YOUR background and experience?

Obviously at this hour of the morning (1:35am), this is about the only time I have left to get on here and "spar" with members of the "Watch Desk". Obviously, you too, did not entirely read "The Healing Touch" on our website. If you did, and you still feel the same way, then you are a complete BIGOT!

I'm sorry for being so blunt, but I "Call them as I see them"...

Be careful... you never know who exactly is reading these comments on here!

Later,
SCOTT BAREFOOT, FF/NREMT-P
CHAIRMAN
PUBLIC SAFETY HIV SUPPORT NETWORK

PS - Call me up on the phone and lets have this discussion!

[Loo for life]

Whereas for the most part I am sorry for those persons which have contracted HIV/Aids, the HEP family and/or any other communicable disease it is not in our best interest to not use gloves even if we arrive with no blood or body fluids showing.....

We have spent the last roughly 15 years getting FIREMEN to become automatic when wearing their BSI there is no reason for that to change, just for comforts sake!

We are not responding to Medical Emergencies to be someone's friend we are responding to handle the emergency portion of the incident that they dialed 911 for.

Automatic properly utilized BSI is for both the patients and the firefighters BEST interest.

So before you jump down DrNapalms throat with what sounds like a self absorbed I know whats best attitude! Remember he was taught that way and it is as it should be!!

Feel free to be upset with me or call me names cause my order of worry on the emergency scene is as follows:

1. MY FIREMEN
2. Myself
3. The Patient

Thats with over 26 years of FD experience in case you want to question my credentials..

John P

[fd141]

Loo For Life,
Very WELL Spoken(written) response!! :cool: And as far as your Priorities on the scene, You get a BIG HELL YEAH :eek: from me. And that is with 30 yrs. experience.

[harney]

PSHSN:

Instead of trying to modify the absolutely appropriate behavior of first responders, it seems to me that a better use of your time could be found. Maybe you could spend some time explaining to those people who have contracted communicable diseases WHY we take 'universal precautions'. Maybe some HIV+ patients might not vilify us for attempting to do our dangerous jobs in the safest way possible. They might even find a way to feel 'the healing touch' through the latex.

I, for one, with nearly 35 years in the fire service, would be very uncomfortable telling my troops that they should delay gloving until they feel a need. It took many years for us to learn the correct behavior, and to subordinate our testosterone-filled egos. This newly-learned behavior is critical in today's climate. Developing good habits when it comes to personal protection, either from blood-borne pathogens or aerosolized bioligical agents of terrorists, may just save our lives. Those good habits may them allow us to save other lives instead of becoming victims.

Your post is ill-conceived and inappropriate. And by your definition, I must be a bigot. Let's hope (again by your definition) that we all are.

[SquirrelGirl]

I, for one, don't think I'd be very comfortable if I had a crew walk into my living room because I'm in distress and they weren't wearing gloves.

A scenario:
The first 3 guys on scene walk into a house, who all day have been dealing with bloody, sick, injured, etc. people, and the patient has a broken finger that doesn't "warrant" gloving up. Regardless, I would think that safety would supercede "the healing touch" What if this person with a broken finger starts hacking up blood? It was only a broken finger...

Number 2:
Someone is laying on the ground, looks like they passed out drunk maybe, no fluids showing. No gloves. No biggie. You pick up their head and find that they're bleeding. Are you going to gently set them down and explain to them that you'll need to put your gloves on now?

There is no crystal ball. A piece of latex scant microns thick that takes 5 seconds to put on and could potentially stop the spread of all the nasty diseases to responders shouldn't even be an issue.

The healing touch? Come on! I think an empathetic voice and a squeeze of a hand through latex on the 10 minute ride to the hospital will suffice. Why would you risk your personal safety for a 20 minute encounter?

[DCFDRescue2]

911 is not a phone number to be used when a person wants to have company, there are plenty of 1-900 numbers for that. Some of them may also give you a touch, though it may not be that healing, it will still make you feel good. 911 is (should be) for real emergencies. If a person is in such great distress as to call for EMERGENCY medical help, they probably won't be to worried about why a person has latex gloves on.

[DrNapalm]

I did read the “healing touch” and thought it was very inappropriate for the fire service, you said yourself it was “food for thought”.

You are right in the fact that I am not a “medical” doctor (why would I be riding fire trucks if I where) but I do play one on TV. Second, I fail to understand the reasoning wanting to use gloves makes me a bigot? Now if I were to say that an HIV+ health care provider that is not using BSI measures scares the HELL OUT OF ME that may count.

Also, unlike these other guys I only have 12 years in the fire service.

[PSHSN]

Dr Napalm-

Forgive me for calling you a "Bigot"... I was primarily referring to the person from D.C. Fire that sent the message to our website that "sparked" this debate... again, stating (directed at me): "It's no wonder you are HIV+". And, if you / they want to get into a competition about number of years in the fire / ems service... me and the other members of my board of directors of The PSHSN have a combined 83 years! Again, that isn't me personally... it's "Us" Collectively. And, don't even bother coming back to me with the "collective years" of those currently working for D.C Fire... obviously, you all would win that competition! ;-)

Like you said, the whole purpose of that page ("The Healing Touch") was "Food for Thought". That's why I have been puzzled at the "backlash" this has created. Again, I / we are NOT calling for a relaxation of Infection Control Procedures, etc... just recall that I, personally, and have often noted many others wearing gloves far too often than circumstances warrant.

For example: Say you run a "call" for a 5yo girl that fell off her tricycle and broke her ankle. I'll further paint the picture / call by stating that the little girl has no abrasions, no bleeding... just a broken ankle. I suppose you all are going to get off of your pumper / ambulance and go rushing up to her, ALL doned in rubber gloves. My only point is, that a person calling 911 for assistance is traumatized enough, in-and-of-itself (having to call 911 to start with), without everyone swarming them... out-fitted as if they are going to battle chemical warfare... wearing scary-looking rubber gloves (before you/they even get off of the apparatus).

Again, Just "Food for Thought"
Thanks for participating in the discussion... just wanted to make sure everyone has/had their "thinking caps on".
PEACE!
SCOTT BAREFOOT
PUBLIC SAFETY HIV SUPPORT NETWORK
WWW.PSHSN.COM

[PSHSN]

One more item / response to an earlier post on this discussion thread:
In response to what a prior poster wrote:
"It's only taken us 15 years to get fire fighters to wear BSI"

What exactly is that person trying to say? That Fire Fighters aren't intelligent enough to determine when/where/why to wear protective / BSI gear? That's what it sounds like to me.

As a trained Fire Fighter, myself, I personally take offense to THAT statement. Not all fire fighters are the ignorant "fense posts" that the prior writer implies. That's my WHOLE POINT! I think the entire issue just requires people to use a little "common sense" and that the old "all or nothing" philosophy is one that shouldn't / need-not exist!

AGAIN, THANKS
SCOTT BAREFOOT

[SquirrelGirl]

For example: Say you run a "call" for a 5yo girl that fell off her tricycle and broke her ankle. I'll further paint the picture / call by stating that the little girl has no abrasions, no bleeding... just a broken ankle. I suppose you all are going to get off of your pumper / ambulance and go rushing up to her, ALL doned in rubber gloves. My only point is, that a person calling 911 for assistance is traumatized enough, in-and-of-itself (having to call 911 to start with), without everyone swarming them... out-fitted as if they are going to battle chemical warfare... wearing scary-looking rubber gloves (before you/they even get off of the apparatus).



There's no way of knowing if the patient has any abrasions or bleeding, etc. until you're there. What if she IS bleeding? What if she starts hacking up blood? Are you going to stop, excuse yourself, and don gloves? I hardly think that thin pieces of rubber are "scary-looking" I don't consider navy blue and a pair of gloves battle gear.

Your food for thought is laced with poison, buddy.

[medic5]

Give me a freakin' break! The site of gloves is going to "traumatize" or further the traumatization that a broken ankle has caused to this patient? Get a grip dude. I totally think that your organization is a worthwhile one, and can be very beneficial to those who use it as a support network. However, it seems that you personally are causing more enemies by backlashing at every single ignorant statement made. There will always be those who have feelings of hate for those infected with HIV/AIDS and stereotyping them into a homosexual category, when that is not always the case. But by playing into their negativity, you bring your fine organization in a bad light. Not every person will always agree with your ideas, that is just a fact of life that all of us have and will continue to face. However, I do not feel that it is anyone's right to condemn those for having differing opinions, which you have obviously been known to do.

[PSHSN]

Hey Medic 5-
Well, you "win"... I'd like to thank you for your kind words about our organization.
I really do appreciate EVERYONE'S comments / opinions / concerns about the "can of worms" that I've seemingly opened-up here by starting my organization. And, I personally, want to thank-you TOO!
Again, I think you need to give fire fighters a little "credit"... they have been and continue to be intelligent enough to determine when the use of rubber gloves/BSI are appropriate and when they're not.
BE WELL... PEACE!
SCOTT BAREFOOT
PUBLIC SAFETY HIV SUPPORT NETWORK

[SkyMedic]

I believe BSI should be used as much as possible, its not just for HIV/Hep family. I have in the past been guilty of not having time to put on gloves when I needed a line or a tube in rush(powderless gloves that fit dont go on easily when your hands are sweaty). I can say that when time permited I always wore gloves though, its not neccessarily germs I am worried about. I dont know where folks have been or what they have been touching. I dont even like it when I am at a dance club with my girlfriend and some sweaty person bumps into me. Its not as hard as you might think to get a staph infection in your eye or wherever from having it on your hands. Besides, if people called 911 for the right reason( a true emergency ) I dont think they would really care either way about the healing touch for the 30 min I was with them....Just a thought.

[SkyMedic]

Besides, some people are just freakin nasty. Not everyone bathes on a regular basis. How about lice, scabies and roaches. I dont really want to touch psoriasis either. How bout nursing home patients, they could use the "healing touch" more than anyone. But they often are not taken care of properly and have all kinds of nasty goop on their bodies, including dried feces. Do I feel very sorry for them? Yes. Do I want their whatever on me? No. I know a DC medic that helped a homeless guy back into his wheelchair( didnt need 911, just a lift) and got body lice from the nasty dude.

[PSHSN]

AHHH... "Sky Medic"... Now we're cooking:
I can talk to you as one former "Sky Medic" to Another:
Yes, you are correct... you never do know where people have been or what kind of "staph infection" they might be able to provide to you, if you are in the habit of rubbing your hands in your eyes during "calls". If you are in that habit, then even rubber gloves aren't going to help you!
Again, this entire subject has just been "Food for Thought"... obviously, you and many others here have the "Thought" that everyone out there has contagious / communicable diseases that they are just waiting to share with you when they call 911!
And, your comment about they (the people calling 911) shouldn't care whether or not you are wearing gloves for the 30+/- minutes that you are with them...
Well, have you ever stopped to think about the "Germs" that you are then helping to spread by touching a patient (with your gloves on) who may have "Germs" (as you say), and then touching the door handles / surfaces on your pumper, ambulance, or helicopter!
Again, this is all just "Food for Thought"... but, if you're going to critique, let's be fair here...
PEACE!
SCOTT BAREFOOT
PUBLIC SAFETY HIV SUPPORT NETWORK

[SkyMedic]

Sometimes you forget to wash your hands after a call, whatever you have touched on the run comes off with the gloves. As for funking up the unit, I try to decon the ship at the begining of my shift(common touch areas, not the whole thing) once I check my bags and if they dont have one for us right away.

I can see your point about some things, old people and children esp.. I take BPs and do common pt care stuff without gloves once I assess the situation, but if they are wet or nasty in any way forget it.

[medic5]

Well, it's not just that BSI is to protect us, the providers always. It is also beneficial to those receiving our care by our using universal precautions. Mr. Barefoot, you should know this more than anyone, persons who are immunologically challenged patients admitted to a hospital at times have requirements on the doors to their room that nobody enters without gloves, mask, etc. This isnt for the healthcare provider's protection, it is for the protection of that patient. Now, how much do you think that immunocompromised patient is going to care about some "healing touch" when that "healing touch" could be the very thing that exposes him/her to a fatal infection and death? I agree, that in controlled settings (i.e. Doctor's offices) that the "healing touch" could be more practical. However, I just cannot see any particular benefit to these patients in emergency medicine. I think in the long run, it sets each party up for more problems.

JR

[citywide]

PSHSN,

First thing is you are one totally absurd S.O.B. NEVER, EVER, EVER in a million years would I ever treat a patient without gloves. Nor, will I ever allow my crew to do it. There is too much shit out there to catch. And whatever the patient thinks? Oh well!!! I am concerned for MY health and my crews' health FIRST AND FOREMOST. ALL of your statements are the MOST ridiculous things I have ever heard on thewatchdesk.com.

Second thing is get off of the thread--this is the FIREFIGHTING thread. If you want to talk about medical locals then go to the EMS thread. Now LEAVE!!

BYE!!!!!!!!!!!

[upupaway]

Amen--it has taken too many years to achieve BSI--lets not take steps backward. This horse has been beaten to death!!!!!! :eek:

[PSHSN]

Well, I must say, that agree with some of your statements and TOTALLY disagree with others. In a way, the last poster continues the "Stigma" of the level of intelligence of Fire Fighters... again, I'm also a Fire Fighter, so I can say that.
Again, I appreciate the kind words about our organization... to the others... like the one who called me an "S.O.B.", well, so-be-it. I respect your opinion.
As I've been telling everyone... County Governments, State Governments, and members of The National Government... This issue, HIV/AIDS in Public Safety is one that has a "pile of dynamite" sitting beneath it. Again, just treat ALL of your patients / co-workers with respect! That's all I'm asking. If you don't need to be wearing rubber gloves to take the Blood Pressure of a 5yo with a broken ankle, then DON'T DO IT! If the situation warrants, then of course, you should be wearing gloves / BSI equipment.
That's all for me on this thread... obviously, I shouldn't be discussing EMS subjects on a "Fire Thread" (despite the fact that one of your own started this). But, obviously, you all run more than your fair share of "Medical Boxes"... if you doubt this, call-up your Captain or Batallion Chief and ask him/her for your response statistics... I bet you'd be surprised that your "EMS Rsponses" far out-number your legit. "Fire Responses"... So, shouldn't EMS/FIRE be one and the same?
Again, Food for Thought!
PEACE!
SCOTT BAREFOOT
PUBLIC SAFETY HIV SUPPORT NETWORK (and, YES, Fire is a part of our organization... as well as, EMS and Police)

[DCFDRescue2]

[I bet you'd be surprised that your "EMS Rsponses" far out-number your legit. "Fire Responses"... So, shouldn't EMS/FIRE be one and the same?

Nobodys 3 day old headache ever destroyed a downtown area like fires have the ability to do. So no, they should not be one and the same.

[HOOKMAN]

Isnt There A Ems Thread To Write This Crap In And Not In The Firefighting Threads..quite Honestly Ur Medic Blabber Quite Bores Me...oh Well Back To The Nascar Race... :D

[SquirrelGirl]

Hookman- Then don't read it. It affects everyone in the fire service.

This really shouldn't even be an issue. WEAR YOUR GLOVES. Doesn't matter where or when. I don't think you'll hurt anyone's feelings by protecting yourself, your crew, and you patient.

[DFO]

Give me a freakin' break! The site of gloves is going to "traumatize" or further the traumatization that a broken ankle has caused to this patient? Get a grip dude.

A 5 y/o would not even think about someone having gloves on. All that kid would want is for the pain to go away!!!! Some points to bring up as well would be, if the ankle is broken how are you sure that when you go to stabilize it and splint it a bone won't come through? What are those parents going to think when they see you working on their child? Maybe-- Why Do They Have Gloves On? however, I would be much more upset if someone came to work on my family or even myself and did not have gloves on. Those gloves and in fact ALL forms of BSI are meant to not only protect the provider but also the patient. Our responsibility on the call is to "take care of the emergency". That is why we are called and that is what is expected of us. If I offend someone by wearing gloves, so be it! I would rather that than the alternative. If I die or even become ill because of HIV or HEP A,B,C, ECT. what good am I able to do???? As my signature states and I know many people know the expression I only have ONE ass to Risk. I plan on making those risks as few as need be.

[catseyes]

I can't believe that medic5's comment about the gloves being for the patient's protection got no response from you, PSHSN. He's completely right. Aside from all the bugs that we normally carry on our skin, we have the potential to carry germs of all 3 types from one patient to the next unless we practice BSI and good handwashing. Ever heard of nosocomial infections?

[chief2]

When I was running Medical Calls, I walked in on a patient, whose first words was, please double glove, I know I have Aids and how I got, I don't know who the last patient you saw was, so for my protection, please glove. I am being to believe that Scott is trying to keep stirring the pot.

[PSHSN]

To All:
Allow me to take the time to address SEVERAL of your different "theories" and "spins" on this subject...
Again, All I am / have been saying is being proactive about the "responsible use of rubber gloves".
True, you could run a call for a little 5yo Girl, who is actually a demon from the "Exorcist", and she could being spinning her head around and spraying blood out of her mouth. Sound a little rediculous? Well, that's about the level of what most of your comments are on here.
As to all the Staph Infections, etc.. that others claims that EVERYONE has some kind of "germ" to pass along, that is nothing that can't be avoided by proper hand hygiene (using your waterless / alcohol hand cleansers,ect).
AGAIN, Don't go rubbing your hands (gloved or Un-gloved) into your eyes during calls!
Sure, you can ALWAYS find a "worst-case" scenario, but is that really the norm or likely scenario? If we should always be planning for "worst-case", well shouldn't we all be doning full body-suits to deal with and interact with ANY patient? Who, knows... you could run a medical box for an 80yo woman with difficulty breathing, and she could just happen to be the mother-in-law of Osama Bin Laden, and you could be walking into a "booby-trapped" house of chemical / biological weapons... Rubber gloves aren't going to help in that instance!?
All I'm saying, is that you should use a little common sense, and not treat every one of your patients like they are a walking/talking "infectious disease" host.
Again, Just Food for Thought!
SCOTT BAREFOOT
PUBLIC SAFETY HIV SUPPORT NETWORK
WWW.PSHSN.COM

[SquirrelGirl]

All I'm saying, is that you should use a little common sense...

Take your own advice!

[citywide]

Hey PHSHN,

Didn't I tell you to leave this thread?????? Your advice for "common sense" SUCKS!!! My advice for everyone reading this thread is to use your head and PUT THE GLOVES ON EVERY TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!! F*** what this A**hole is saying and do the right and SAFE thing--PUT GOLVES ON!!!!!!!

END OF THREAD

[PSHSN]

Dear "CityWide"-
Well, I'll be more than happy to tell you where you can go stick/end "Your Thread"... I apologize, but fail to see where this discussion thread has your name on it as "Owner". ;-)
Again, I'll respond by saying that someone from D.C. FIRE started this thread, so obviously, IT IS A CONCERN for Fire Fighters.
Be my guest... go post a few FIRE discussion threads on some of the EMS pages on this site... I'm sure they won't mind near as much as you seem to be disturbed by this one!
Why don't you come downtown this Sunday, June 13... it's D.C.'s Gay Pride Day... I'll be sharing a booth with the Washington, D.C. Metropolitan Police Department there... I'd love to continue this disucussion with you IN-PERSON!
PEACE!
Scott Barefoot
Public Safety HIV Support Network
www.pshsn.com

[Kobersteen]

Jesus H., people!

I've got a solution for all of you. Give one of them a whirl!

1. Wear gloves. But don't come bitching to Scott if you alienate patients.

2. DON'T wear gloves. But don't come bitching to me, your employer or (from the sounds of things) ANYONE on The Watch Desk if you come down with something or 'bring home a friend from work' and infect your family.

Good day to you, sir.

JK

[PSHSN]

AMEN
Thank-you

[HOOKMAN]

i cant believe u all are talkin about gloves and being concerned for firefighters wearing gloves on ems runs.u all sound like lil whining kids..who freaken cares if u dont wear ur gloves & who gives a flyin rats ass....like i said before this is a firefighting forum the ems one is under ems for useless crap like this. :confused: .but i do find the gloves marked size L for large to come in quite handy...especially when i put my tire wet on my tires after ive washed my car at the station. it helps not to get the oily residue on my perfect hands. plus my car then looks good for my 3 days off :D

[HOOKMAN]

hey squirrel not to ruffle ur acorn nuts that u probably luv to eat so much but ur lil comment that gloves affect the fire service...u actually have to talk about this bullshit and write paragraph after f'en paragraph about rubber gloves....holy shit were talkin about rubber gloves on here please there has to be sumthing better in the fire service to talk about then rubber gloves....if the one idiot out there doesnt wear his gloves and i do oh well his own fault..to this day i havent been around anyone who didnt wear them its kinda like puttin ur undies/panties/thong on everyday or in sum peoples cases a peanut shell and a rubberband like myself ,but cmon if u get the itchy ballssyndrome or whatever from not wearin ur gloves thats on u it doesnt affect me...cmon gloves for cryin out loud were talkin about gloves :rolleyes:

[SquirrelGirl]

Hookman- what an enlightening and intelligent response.

"...if the one idiot out there doesnt wear his gloves and i do oh well his own fault.."

Way to look out for your brothers.

[HOOKMAN]

WELL SUIRREL NOT TO MAKE TO BIG A DEAL OF THIS TOPIC BUT U HAVE TO REMIND PEOPLE IN THE FIRE AND EMS SERVICE TO WEAR THERE GLOVES..CMON...GEEZ I GUESS WE SHOULD HOLD THERE HAND TOO WHEN WE HAVE TO CROSS THE STREET...I JUST FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE WE HAVE TO REMIND FIREMAN TO WEAR THERE GLOVES. :confused: AND YES WHEN I SAID THE ONE IDIOT OUT THERE I REFER TO A SMALL % OF PEOPLE ON THE JOB WHO DONT CARE AND ARE LOADS..YOU KNOW THE ONES THAT COME TO WORK CONSISTENTLY AT 6:59 TO RELIEVE U IN THE MORNING AND LIVE 10 MIN AWAY. BUT I AM SENSITIVE IN MY AGE AND THEREFORE IF I ACTUALLY SAW SOMEONE NOT PUTTING THEM ON I WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO GIVE HIM MINE :D

[shocker]

HOOKMAN, you have time to wash your car at work? You must be in the 5th Battalion. For God's sake.........EMS Runs, wear gloves don't wear gloves, catch something, don't catch something..............Fire Calls, wear gloves, don't wear gloves, get burned, don't get burned..............Tomatoe-Tomato, Potatoe-Potato..............NEXT

[HOOKMAN]

yes shocker i do have time to wash my car. are u mad :mad: that u cant or something...geez like u never washed ur car at the firehouse and got everyone elses car soaked so that u could shine urs up. :rolleyes: ..lighten up..should we start a thread now on washing cars. :confused: .ummm no im not in the 5th batt. but if i was i would wash my car more..id have the shiniest car in the 5th batt. :D .shocker so that u can sleep better at night i do wear my fire gloves and my medical gloves...but i dont know about the tomato/potato thing...ur talkin now about fruits and veggies..cmon this is about keeping ur car clean...dont get off track stick with the subject. be safe now :p

[shocker]

Hookman, nice thread. You must have had a lot of time on your hands, no doubt in between the wash and wax cycles on your car at work! Keep up the good work, be safe and for God's sake don't burn yourself out! :eek: