Fire Service Leadership Forum

[Phantom]

This forum will be a little different than the other forums on thewatchdesk, it will be moderated. The moderator will try to keep the discussions on topic and subject.

I believe that the fire service produces good, sometimes great leaders, but then these same leaders fail to translate those leadership skills into the ability to manage a fire department.

For example, we all have stories of guys we wanted to become chiefs who were disappointments when they acutally got the position.

The purpose of this forum is to figure out why this happens, and what we can do about it. It could also be an area to bounce ideas around and pass on information about good books, informative websites, etc...

[Ruuffman231]

Leadership is not something you Just say or try to do, it is an all incompasing action that consumes the provider at the same rate that it inspires the those that are to be led.

Leadership will always triumph over mamagement, primarily because all managment is based on theory while leadership is based on the actions of the leader.

A good leader will ensure that his/her personel are fed first, that they rest first, that they their concerns are handled first. When all this is done then and only then will the leader eat, rest or handle his/her personnel concerns.

A leader is not a friend but will find loyalty from his/her personnel once it has been demonstrated that the leader cares for them first and formost.

Just a couple of thought to get things rolling.

[1014engine]

The best example I've seen is this: Marine Corps Leadership Principles and Traits - if you think of the firemen as marines, and the fire company as a small infantry squad, this should just about cover it:

Marine Corps Leadership Principles --
• Know yourself and seek self-improvement.
• Be technically and tactically proficient.
• Develop a sense of responsibility among your subordinates.
• Make sound and timely decisions.
• Set the example.
• Know your Marines and look out for their welfare.
• Keep your Marines informed.
• Seek responsibility and take responsibility for your actions.
• Ensure assigned tasks are understood, supervised, and accomplished.
• Train your Marines as a team.
• Employ your command in accordance with its capabilities.

Marine Corps Leadership Traits --
• Dependability - The certainty of proper performance of duty.
• Bearing - Creating a favorable impression in carriage, appearance and personal conduct at alltimes.
• Courage - The mental quality that recognizes fear of danger or criticism, but enables a man to proceed in the face of it with calmness and firmness.
• Decisiveness - Ability to make decisions promptly and to announce them in clear, forceful manner.
• Endurance - The mental and physical stamina measured by the ability to withstand pain, fatigue, stressand hardship.
• Enthusiasm - The display of sincere interest and exuberance in the performance of duty.
• Initiative - Taking action in the absence of orders.
• Integrity - Uprightness of character and soundness of moral principles; includes the qualities oftruthfulness and honesty.
• Judgment - The ability to weigh facts and possible solutions on which to base sound decisions.
• Justice - Giving reward and punishment according to merits of the case in question. The abilityto administer a system of rewards and punishments impartially and consistently.
• Knowledge - Understanding of a science or an art. The range of one’s information, including professional knowledge and an understanding of your Marines.
• Tact - The ability to deal with others without creating offense.
• Unselfishness - Avoidance of providing for one’s own comfort and personal advancement at the expense of others.
• Loyalty - The quality of faithfulness to country, the Corps, the unit, to one’s seniors,subordinates and peers.

Oh and BTW, "Every marine is a rifleman." Imagine that.
OO-Rah! :D

[Phantom]

I appreciate both your posts, I have seen similar leadership directives from the Navy Seals and Army Rangers. If I can find them I will post them.

Any thoughts on the applicability of military leadership principles and practices to the fire service? We are a paramilitary organization, but what does that mean? :rolleyes:

[TaskForce]

Something ruuffman said made me think....
Leadership vs. management because many times they are closely aligned or one in the same. Many times leaders are involved in management and managers are called upon to lead. They are nearly interchangable. I realize that many companies (stations) have administrative officers who may or may not be operational officers, but in just as many cases they are both.

The fact that we (public safety) are a paramilitary ogranization helps us, I think. The formal rank-and-file nature of promotions and positions forces us to adhere to a standard and chain of command that are necessary to maintain order and focus. Were we to not have this type of setup, it is very possible that some rookie with 2 months on could start barking out orders to some 30 year jake just because he could shout the loudest. Having a para-military setup (chain of command inclusive) helps us preserve order. If we are to make calm and order from stupidity and arrogance on the count of the general public, then we have to have some heirarchical stepping system to maintain order...

[Ruuffman231]

Phantom,

That's an excellent thought to explore, what about this paramilitary crap? Well the awnser of course is we are a paramilitary orginazation, it is folly to think other wise.

If you truely look at the histroy of the fire service, what is it except the fact that the founding fathers were preparing the colonies for "home land defense". Almost all of them were involve, helped organize, organized or lead volunteer fire companies. They saw something comming on the horizan and took steps to prepare. So base on that, and the fact that almost all of them had been involved as militia or regular officers of the military it is only natural that our organization (fire service) would emulate that which has longest history for sucess in Leadership and Management.

Now I don't want to see the same things that I had to do in the military appear in my day to day fire job, but much of the way I work in my house is based on those things that I learned in the service. We don't have to stand long formations or have wallocker inspections. But, their are several of our militaries ideals, principles and moray's that work to great effect for the fire service. I do believe in a rugged recruit training program, I think it is important for us to have a little spit and polish (station, apparatus, and Uniforms). As it is also important to use the ranks and understan that the rank commands respect but the oficer who wears it must earn that respect.

As Task force states our centralized us of a chain of command and the ideas developed for ICS/IMS have recently started to put us down that path that as a young service we started down almost 300 years ago. It is important and each of us have stated it one must lead by example; we must demonstrate our level of commitment to those that serve with us.

most importantly we must stay true to those brothers who paved the way for us, that died living and beathing the Fire service, we are responsible to pave a path into the future that propells our fire service positively into the sight of the public. For if we fail we will surely have to awnser a thousand ghost clad in navy wool and soot stain faces for the failures of our work. :(

By the way right on Task Force! As a side I tried to get into the marines but could not pass the test. I just could not get my head in that jar. (lol) :D

Phantom, I don't know if anyone else is getting any benefit of this but I have enjoyed this conversation!



______________________

"I have no other ambiention in life.......but to be a fireman".
Chief E. Crocker FDNY

[Phantom]

A couple of thoughts on the previous posts.

First, management and leadership isn’t really the same thing. Good managers need to understand leadership and practice good leadership principles, the converse of that is also true. Truely effective leaders in an organization, understand the organizations managment principles an use them.

I think leadership is the ability sell a system to others, and management is the tools used in the system (communications, documentation, etc..)

I think that is why the military model is interesting. They understand leadership qualities and encourage them and they have a fairly rigid management system that is understood top to bottom as a result of a standard system of indoctrination and training. This allows a system where the parts can be plugged in and out routinely.

As a bonus they don't have to follow all the rules and regulations as they apply to local government or private industry hence they have a real system for discipline. (This is why a "true military sytem can't work in our sector.)

So what do we (the fire service) take from the military? A rank structure, uniforms, and a desire to have the sense of order it implies. I think we miss the most important part of the military model in failing to adequately perform training and indoctrination. As a result we miss out on the leadership and management principles that give the sense of order our organizations desire.

To fix it we need to understand better what we do and how we do it, then we can analyze it and train for it. This doesn’t so much apply to getting wet stuff on the red stuff, but understanding how our reporting affects our budget, selling our departments, risk versus benefit decisions, and leading our departments.

My soap box, my 2 cents only.

[Phantom]

Trust and empower your people to do their jobs, then stand behind them. Unless they are absolute lowlifes, always, even when they screw up, go to bat for them. However, also call a spade a spade. Supporting your people doesn’t mean carrying deadweight, If there are stellar performers and nonperformers, make it obvious that you know the difference and reflect that in mission taskings and performance evaluations. In a military situation, be dedicated to your people, the mission, and the customer first and foremost, and only then to yourself and your career. And then I always emphasize a quote from Colin Powell that I think summarizes the leadership failure with regard to Somalia: “The Commander in the field is always right and the rear echelon is always wrong, unless proven otherwise.” In other words, if you are going to overrule decisions or requests form the field, you damn well better have done your homework.

Michael Durant
Page 358
In The Company of Heroes

[Sledge hammer]

Bravo! I like that Qoute from Michael Durant, I believe you hit the nail rite on the head. I feel that this is a big problem in our dept. We need to call out are spades. As well as start listening to out field operators a little more than are rear echelon. Why is it that when you get into the office and put on the white shirt that you forget where you came from and how you got there. If our Officers would just take a little time to evaluate some problems and ask for answers to these problems. It would put a dent in all the headache medication stocks.

[SMOKE DIVER]

Being a Officer takes 10% of knowing how to fight fire (tactics) an 90% of knowing how to deal with people.

[Phantom]

But that 10% of the officer's total picture must include prety close to 100% of the tactics not just 10% of them. :)

[Firewalker117]

The military is the backbone of leadership. Should the fire service follow the leadership direction of the military? Absolutely. My father has always told me that in order to give orders you must first learn how to take them. Take the orders and experience your leaders are giving you and make yourself a better employee or professional because of them.

Structure is also important in the fire service. Structure and stability. Roll models, are who we are to the public. Roll models are our officers (in some cases).

What needs to happen is when a leader has reaches his/her peak then need to recognize that and remove themselves. More often then not we are stuck with the same ideas and previously made grudges and we aren’t making any new progress.

[SMOKE DIVER]

Let me re-frase my comment in the Chief Level, the job entails 10%of knowing how to fight fire and 90% to manage people(Baby Sit).

[Phantom]

I understood what you meant, but it is easy to read a comment like that and see something else. The technical side of managaing people must include the ability to manage projects and delagate authority; the human side is far trickier.

[dan3511]

I just finished reading Rudolph Giuliani's book LEADERSHIP....... what an amazing individual. His leadership theory and how he incorporated his theory into practice has many applications in the fire service. Furthermore, I found it interesting that one could apply his theory at every level of management, whether you are the chief of a large metro. dept. or (as I am) at a company officer level with 5 men working for you. It's worth the $20 to check it out. Also, there are some good pdf texts from the national fire academy.....you can print the texts from the web site. If my memory serves me correctly...some are "hand off" classess (that's where you will find them on the NFA site) Check out the leadership and management series.

Smoke diver, I know exactly what you mean. You study and train so hard at the task and tactical level things just to get promoted. Then, once you get the bugle (s) you realize how much personnel "stuff" comes up.

[Flip]

"This isnt the Army Flip"....If I had a dollar every time I heard that.....Anyways.

I cant remember what Fire mag I had read this in, it was in an article dealing with leadership in the fire service: "Managers enforce regulations, leaders enforce values." ( as an example of how I took it, I like to enforce the uniform guideline, not just because it is the written standard, but more importantly, because following it, and looking proffesional, shows pride in yourself, the department and to the fireservice, and when wearing the maltese cross, it should be worn with the utmost of respect in an honor to our fallen.)

I saw that a former Marine had posted the values he had been taught. I'll post those that I was taught. Coincidentally enough...L.D.R.S.H.I.P.

Loyalty: Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, and other soldiers. Be loyal to the nation and its heritage.

Duty: Fulfill your obligations. Acccept responsibility for your own actions and those entrusted to your care. Find opportunites to improve oneself for the good of the group.

Respect: Treat others as they should be treated.

Sefless service: Put the welfare of the Nation, the Army and your subordinates before your own.

Honor: Live up to all the Army values.

Integrity: Do whats right, legally and morally.

Personal Courage: Face fear, danger, or adversity (physical or moral)


At one time I was in charge of a platoon. An older Sergeant imparted some truths on leadership when I got there.

1.) Its better to make a wrong decision than to make no decision at all. Chaos ensues otherwise.

2.) Dont just lead by example. BE the example.

3.) If the person who is supposed to be leading you isnt doing it, then dammit, step up.

One of my Chiefs, pretty much the Patriarch of the Department, an oldschool fireman, and at one time a Master Sergeant, told me the following once in passing, and I'll never forget it: " You cant push a rope, you can only pull it." and modifying General Pattons statement; " Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way."

Just a few tidbits of knowledge imparted, shared and mixed with a few of my own. I believe the Military model is a good one to follow. I really and truely, unfortunately, have not found many officers that have inspired me by their example, to be like them the way I found while in the Army. Alot of Managers and not leaders. I've been told that at times, I can be too hard nosed. To the contrary, Ive found that I can honestly say that Ive earned the respect of not only my guys, but have had guys with 3 times the amount of time in that I have, look me dead in the eye and with a frim handshake tell me they'd follow me to hell and back.

I like to think that the military model has helped me, if not to be a good leader, at least put me on the road to being a good Jake and earn the respect and trust of my guys. Thanks for reading my two cents and I apologize for the length. Be safe out there. HTF-FTM-PTB-EGH

[Phantom]

Thanks for passing that on.

[Phantom]

Speaking of Leadership, what about the Baltimore City Thread where the new Fire Chief is answering questions. Is it appropiate for a Fire Chief to be on TheWatchDesk talking to the troops?

[Mike Ward]

A refreshing and different approach to leading. With posts like this, from the Cheaters Day (http://www.thewatchdesk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41152&page=2) thread, you know where the chief stands:

The testing procedure needs to be changed with many more security measures in place. We also need to go back to some type of performance testing rather than total reliance on a written test. That is what I intend to do.

Meanwhile, read over the IG report and then put yourselves in my shoes for a minute. There is absolutely no way that report would hold up in any venue, ie. court, civil service, arbitration etc. There is not enough evidence. That fact may make you mad, but it is what it is. I am just trying to clean up a mess and move the department forward.

If you need someone to be mad at, I'm your guy. Fire away. Someday you may need to make some hard decisions and will maybe understand why I did what I did. I inherited this problem and it is my job to fix it.

[Phantom]

Mike, that is exactly the post that made me think about it.. Do you think there are negative's to the Chief Posting in the threads or keeping public blog?

[Mike Ward]

There always is a risk. James O. Page returned to the fire service as the fire chief in Montery Park, a suburb of LA County, so he could work enough years to get his state firefighter pension. When he resigned as a LA County battalion chief he needed a couple more years to get vested in the state retirement system.

He wrote a column for the community newspaper. At that time he had decades of experience as a lawyer, administrator and the founding publisher of JEMS magazine.

Page managed to write himself right out of his fire chief's job, after making fun of city leadership in one of his columns. At least he had enough time in to get his state pension.

I think Clark is defusing some of the rumours and turmoil that comes from TWD. He stays on message, does not respond to personal attacks and remains consistent. Unlike an earlier fire administrator that came on TWD.

[Phantom]

Mike (or anyone else)

If you were to suggest a set of rules for leaders who post in a forum or blog what would they be?

[ffmedicmo]

I personally think the Chief signing on and making himself available to the rank and file was a good thing. I hope it doesn't become overwhelming, but think if he keeps up with it, it will be a great thing he has done. Same as I heard the Chief was going to every firehouse in the city, sitting down and having dinner with every shift. There is no way you can make everyone happy and I think he knows that. Like it or not, he is being upfront and providing good communications with the personnel in his department which is very important. But even more importantly I think he is connecting with his men, building trust and confidence. I have been watching, and listening to comments made by some friends who are in the city. The sad thing is people in this area (the Baltimore-DC Metro Area) seem so fearful, suspicious of everything. I guess it's hard for people in this area to believe there are people like that who do truly care and aren't out to do harm to them.

As far as posting... here is my list of considerations...

- Post when it's pertinent. Such as factually answering a question to alleviate misinformation or to provide information.
- Post when you think you have something positive to contribute to the forum that will benefit participants.
- Maintain your professionalism. If you don't have it, how can you expect your ff's to have it.
- Don't get involved in throwing people under the bus. (again be professional)
- Maintain a positive demeanor. Build on the positives and turn the negative into an opportunity for improvement.
- Maintain the integrity of your organization and the fire service.

Comes down to what Lou Holtz said...
DO RIGHT,
DO YOUR BEST
TREAT OTHERS THE WAY YOU WANT TO BE TREATED...

Be Safe, Mo