Warped thought process...

[Loo for life]

Meanwhile Ellerbe outlined his proposal to switch to 12-hour shifts from 24-hour shifts. The proposal essentially would have firefighters working shorter shifts, but more often, reducing the need for overtime shifts.

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/local/2011/10/dc-fire-slashing-overtime-pay#ixzz1a1Ejn636


Really, seriously, really and what world does this thought process come from?:confused:

[regs1]

ok the 2-2-4 shift; that's what ellerbe always wanted, not the 3-3-3 shift.

[Hydro Engineer]

:confused:So how would working 4-12 hour shifts reduce overtime.:confused: I take off now for a shift it's 24 hours, with 2-2-4 I take off a shift I'm taking all 4 day's. 48 hours.:p

[regs1]

The thread title tells it all. :D

[oldhead]

Won't happen unless the membership votes for it. This thread should be titled just "Warped" because there ain't NO thought process going on at all.

[Brooks]

To put 343 firefighters on duty, the only way to reduce overall personnel costs is to get them to work for fewer dollars per hour. With a collective bargaining agreement, the only way to reduce $/hr is to attrit the senior, high-wage earners in favor of new hires of junior, low-wage earners.

Most of the fat, and some of the muscle, has been trimmed from other areas.

"Two, Two, and Four" will probably cost more money, as there is a cost, in overtime, associated with each shift change. This is especially true of evening shift changes, when the city is busier, and traffic is worse. 224 adds an evening shift change, while the existing schedule only has a morning shift change.

The use of day and night shifts is paradoxically *less healthy (http://www.firefightingincanada.com/content/view/5801/213/)* than expecting members to be potentially active for 24 hours in a row:

In contrast, says Wisconsin-based sleep researcher Dr. Linda Glazner, the 24-hour rotation doesn’t fundamentally disrupt human circadian rhythms, the 24-hour biological cycle that governs living things.

Glazner has compared the impact of 10-14 and 24-hour shifts on firefighters in Toronto, California and New Jersey. Her research has convinced many fire departments to move to the 24-hour rotation.

“A healthy person’s circadian rhythms, which can be measured electronically, look like a ‘sine wave’,” says Glazner. “The circadian rhythms of someone who works the 24-hour rotation conforms to this shape. The circadian rhythms of a 10-14 hour worker do not.”

You have to sleep after a 24-hour shift, but it doesn't upset your rhythms.

Here's a .pdf file (http://pubs.drdc.gc.ca/PDFS/unc48/p524652.pdf) of a Canadian study of the effects of night-time responses to the cognitive faculties of firefighters working several shifts schedules. It does not directly compare 224, but does compare several day-shift and night-shift schedules before recommend DCFD's existing 24h shift schedule as the best one for cognitive performance. The effect of sleep disturbance is cumulative, and takes 1-2 days to repair. When people work successive shifts during their normal sleep period, the effect worsens for each successive shift.

Because the circadian rhythms are affected by the sun's light & dark cycles, and because social contacts (important for maintaining sane and courteous firefighters) are almost exclusively on a normal diurnal schedule, it is almost impossible to effectively change a person's circadian rhythm to allow for a regular, day-time, sleep period. In Washington, DC, almost every fire station regularly receives alarms between 2300 and 0700, so it can be assumed that any employee working overnight at those stations -- even on a shift shorter than 24 hours -- will develop fatigue and impaired cognitive abilities over successive days of work.

The solution, of course, is to avoid successive days of nightwork. While maintaining a 42h average work week, the existing 24/72 schedule successfully avoids successive days of nightwork. Most workers in the US, and around the world, enjoy a 64 hour weekend once a week. This leisure time is an important time to bond with family members and friends, as well as to 'decompress' from the week's work. Firefighters face stressors that are much more severe than the normal 9 to 5 worker faces, and need their 'weekends' as much as or more than the regular worker does. This is especially true since the 24-7-365 operational schedule of fire departments preclude 'normal' weekends that coincide with the family's weekends. There is no schedule with 10 to 14 hour shifts that prevents successive days of nightwork and allows for scheduled breaks of more than 40 hours. Any attempt to do so would be unhealthy and result in worse employee performance than a 24h shift with at least a day of recovery.

[oldhead]

Here's a fucking idea. Why doesn't the fems administrator/political appointee propose a REALISTIC O.T. budget? 2 million per year won't cut it, EVER, it's way too low. How about budgeting 5 mill. and aiming for 3? NO ONE has ever proposed realistic O.T. expenditures for the FD and we always end up blowing the budget. Of course you could just go the route of the last guy and say, "Fuck a budget!"

[oldhead]

Brooks,

Please. The LAST thing they care about is our health.

[Brooks]

They'll care about our health when an overstressed and under-rested firefighter makes an error that costs a well-connected person their life.

[oldhead]

No. They won't. They'll care about how much money they lose, and even then they won't care much about that evidenced by the city's track record with lawsuits. What they'll REALLY care about is how to go about giving the over-stressed, over-worked, and under-rested F/F the proper fucking he deserves.

[Loo for life]

Savings in OT is a line of shit.... Just take the OT costs of the old ems division and that will show you how warped an idea this is... They just had a long article on how bad traffic is in the Metro Area
.
Oldhead...
Remember the hours are negotiable not the shift dude 42 hours is 42 hours! The way you sell the council on not changing shifts is by the initial cost of shift change and the overall discourse that it will cause! The split shifts will cause the city more incidental OT when members come in at 1855 hours and wait til 1859 to assume duty and members start accruing incidental OT....

See Brooks you and I can find common ground!!

[oldhead]

So what yer sayin' and what I been sayin' is, THE SHIFT WON'T CHANGE.

[GottaLaugh]

Why doesn't the fems administrator just lay out what he wants? - to change the demographics of the department by getting as many of us who live outside the city - and far from it - to quit so he can start hiring "city" residents in the cadet program? There's a document floating around somewhere where he said if he does this the department will lose many through attrition and cadets will take there place.

[LincolnHghtLuva]

Here is the answer that the boss gave to city council. This is from the 2012 budget oversight hearing....

By reducing a shift, the Department would experience a higher than normal attrition rate (currently 7 employees per month) because of the change in work hours. Not all positions leaving the Department would need to be filled and could be left vacant if a new target staffing factor was determined. The va-riable savings of this proposed plan is unknown, but such savings could be used to fill vacant positions with new recruits (if needed), expand the Fire Cadet Program for District residents (both options at much lower salary and benefit costs), expand purchasing of apparatus and other equipment to im-prove fleet, or return the savings to the General Fund.


and this was the link where this info was available it now however doesn't work...

http://www.dcfdphotos.com/Fiscal%20Year%202012%20Budget%20Oversight.pdf

[oldhead]

Know why the link won't work? Because the city can't have anything laying around that shows they're agreeing with the fems administrator/political appointee's SOCIAL ENGINEERING agenda.

[oldhead]

And if he thinks loads of guys are gonna quit if he can change the shift (WHICH WON'T HAPPEN) it's proof he's a brain donor. People go where work is (check out our borders) and there ain't much work out there, therefore, ain't nobody goin' nowhere.

[G870]

Sounds like they are posturing... Suggesting this so switching to just a 24/48 wont sound soobad...

[Confused]

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that 2-2-4 will create more overtime because of the increase in POD and Sick Call, the goal of the shift change is to get guys who don't live in the city to quit, it's not rocket science here.

What is rocket science is finding a job if you do quit, the fact of the matter is the FEMS Administrator is underestimating not only the guys who won't quit because there are no other jobs, but he's also underestimating the pride in working for the greatest FIRE DEPARTMENT in the WORLD that many of us still display EVERYDAY.

GOOD DAY SIR YOU LOSE.

[Fir Na Tine]

Good luck DCFD, what a shitty situation.

[DCFDJT]

http://oct.dc.gov/services/on_demand_video/channel13/October2011/10_05_11_JUDICI_1.asx

Here is the latest Council hearing. The budget, staffing and shift schedule are discussed during the Chief's testimony, which begins around the 30 minute mark. Stay informed about the real issues and be ready to stand together behind the Union Executive Board when the time is needed.

Taylor

[DCFD-Gumby]

Savings in OT is a line of shit.... Just take the OT costs of the old ems division and that will show you how warped an idea this is... They just had a long article on how bad traffic is in the Metro Area
.
Oldhead...
Remember the hours are negotiable not the shift dude 42 hours is 42 hours! The way you sell the council on not changing shifts is by the initial cost of shift change and the overall discourse that it will cause! The split shifts will cause the city more incidental OT when members come in at 1855 hours and wait til 1859 to assume duty and members start accruing incidental OT....

See Brooks you and I can find common ground!!
I was wondering if anyone was going to mention the shifts. There is nothing in the union contract about our shift schedule. It only says we work a 42 hour schedule. We voted on the 24-72 vs 2-2-4 when the city gave us the choice. Therefore without any friends in high places the only thing we can do is retire, resign, or come to work. I can do 1 or 3. I did a number 2 earlier.

So let me keep count:

No shorts
No Polo shirts
No more beer (pun)
2-2-4 schedule


And you guys thought voting Ray out was a good idea. Do you miss him yet?

[Loo for life]

Gumby....
Ray would not have made a difference being someone who liked Ray it was time for him to go...No retired guy shou;d run the Local it is the active guys whom suffer the end result,

Guys like Ray n other retired dudes should be there to guide them not walk away!

[DCFD-Gumby]

Well Ray was on the selection committee for the next fire chief so who knows what would have happened. When he lost he did not take the position. I agree someone should have stepped up. But, they should have stepped up when Ray could have shown him the ropes not because there was blood in the water. Tippett did that for Ray and I am sure someone did it for Tippett. We owed Ray a lot more than the front door. As for guiding the current president is paying a lobbyist $4000.00 per month. Did he ask Ray or is he too embarrassed to ask for help from the guy he beat out?

PS: If it weren't for retired guys we could be worse off. Kenny Cox has saved our butts with his personal contacts for years long after he retired. So I am not one to say they can not be President.

[dcfdsid]

I was wondering if anyone was going to mention the shifts. There is nothing in the union contract about our shift schedule. It only says we work a 42 hour schedule. We voted on the 24-72 vs 2-2-4 when the city gave us the choice.



And you guys thought voting Ray out was a good idea. Do you miss him yet?

Why are you posting this non-truth. Reread your blue book.

Sid

[Hydro Engineer]

I was wondering if anyone was going to mention the shifts. There is nothing in the union contract about our shift schedule. It only says we work a 42 hour schedule. We voted on the 24-72 vs 2-2-4 when the city gave us the choice. Therefore without any friends in high places the only thing we can do is retire, resign, or come to work. I can do 1 or 3. I did a number 2 earlier.

So let me keep count:

No shorts
No Polo shirts
No more beer (pun)
2-2-4 schedule


And you guys thought voting Ray out was a good idea. Do you miss him yet?

:rolleyes: Do any of you even read the Blue Book??????? It states very clear that the FIRE FIGHTING DIVISION SHALL WORK 24 HOURS ON DUTY AND 72 HOURS OFF!!!!

Mr Administrator if you fell like discussing this further I am available to listen to your Ridicules Babble:p

[GottaLaugh]

:rolleyes: Do any of you even read the Blue Book??????? It states very clear that the FIRE FIGHTING DIVISION SHALL WORK 24 HOURS ON DUTY AND 72 HOURS OFF!!!!

Mr Administrator if you fell like discussing this further I am available to listen to your Ridicules Babble:p

Haven't pulled my blue book out yet but doesn't it also say that we work 24/72 BUT the schedule can be changed by the fems/administrator after informing the union and giving some sort of justification to do so? I recall it can be done, not easily but it can be changed. It is in another section of the book.

[DCFD-Gumby]

:rolleyes: Do any of you even read the Blue Book??????? It states very clear that the FIRE FIGHTING DIVISION SHALL WORK 24 HOURS ON DUTY AND 72 HOURS OFF!!!!

Mr Administrator if you fell like discussing this further I am available to listen to your Ridicules Babble:p

My bad forgot about that part. But you and Sid did not read Article 5 Management's Rights. Before you get excited and think you are right, please read the first paragraph of Article 45 Hours of Work/Scheduled Leave page 50. Plus, you probably were not at the Union meeting when Ray Sneed told us that the City can change our schedule under "Management's rights" but they can not change the hours. For those who never worked 24-48 the city gave us the option to choose between the 24-72 or 2-2-4 work schedule. The city can change their mind if it suits the catchall "management's rights". So I did read the blue book. I just happened to have read all of it. I voted for 24-72 and do not want to work any other schedule but the city has the final say on work schedules not the Union. How many filed or won a grievance because they made us go to EMT Re-Cert for 48 hours in the week? Not me, I am good for another 2 years. Fortunately, they can not change the 42 hour work week average without a new contract. Keep in mind that if the city offers a pay raise with a longer work week did they really give us a raise?

[GottaLaugh]

It will be next to impossible to get it done but he will try using this DC law referenced in Article 45 of the contract - also read article 6. All in an effort to get some to go away so he can hire his friends in the city.

DC ST § 1-617.08

Formerly cited as DC ST 1981 § 1-618.8

District of Columbia Official Code 2001 Edition Currentness
Division I. Government of District.
Title 1. Government Organization. (Refs & Annos)
Chapter 6. Merit Personnel System.
Subchapter XVII. Labor-Management Relations. (Refs & Annos)
Current Section§ 1-617.08. Management rights; matters subject to collective bargaining.


(a) The respective personnel authorities (management) shall retain the sole right, in accordance with applicable laws and rules and regulations:

(1) To direct employees of the agencies;
(2) To hire, promote, transfer, assign, and retain employees in positions within the agency and to suspend, demote, discharge, or take other disciplinary action against employees for cause;
(3) To relieve employees of duties because of lack of work or other legitimate reasons;
(4) To maintain the efficiency of the District government operations entrusted to them;
(5) To determine:
(A) The mission of the agency, its budget, its organization, the number of employees, and to establish the tour of duty;
(B) The number, types, and grades of positions of employees assigned to an agency's organizational unit, work project, or tour of duty;
(C) The technology of performing the agency's work; and
(D) The agency's internal security practices; and
(6) To take whatever actions may be necessary to carry out the mission of the District government in emergency situations.

(a-1) An act, exercise, or agreement of the respective personnel authorities (management) shall not be interpreted in any manner as a waiver of the sole management rights contained in subsection (a) of this section.

[GottaLaugh]

It will be next to impossible to get it done but he will try using this DC law referenced in Article 45 of the contract - also read article 6. All in an effort to get some to go away so he can hire his friends in the city.

DC ST § 1-617.08

Formerly cited as DC ST 1981 § 1-618.8

District of Columbia Official Code 2001 Edition Currentness
Division I. Government of District.
Title 1. Government Organization. (Refs & Annos)
Chapter 6. Merit Personnel System.
Subchapter XVII. Labor-Management Relations. (Refs & Annos)
Current Section§ 1-617.08. Management rights; matters subject to collective bargaining.


(a) The respective personnel authorities (management) shall retain the sole right, in accordance with applicable laws and rules and regulations:

(1) To direct employees of the agencies;
(2) To hire, promote, transfer, assign, and retain employees in positions within the agency and to suspend, demote, discharge, or take other disciplinary action against employees for cause;
(3) To relieve employees of duties because of lack of work or other legitimate reasons;
(4) To maintain the efficiency of the District government operations entrusted to them;
(5) To determine:
(A) The mission of the agency, its budget, its organization, the number of employees, and to establish the tour of duty;
(B) The number, types, and grades of positions of employees assigned to an agency's organizational unit, work project, or tour of duty;
(C) The technology of performing the agency's work; and
(D) The agency's internal security practices; and
(6) To take whatever actions may be necessary to carry out the mission of the District government in emergency situations.

(a-1) An act, exercise, or agreement of the respective personnel authorities (management) shall not be interpreted in any manner as a waiver of the sole management rights contained in subsection (a) of this section.

I am not sure but I interpret Article 6 to say that it can be forced into arbitration before he can do it.

[Truth]

Is that out of the DPM?

[FEMS Only]

A contract was signed with the city. As with any contract, it is binding by all parties included. A bank can set the interest rate for car loans it offers, but they must abide by the rate they gave you. A boss can set the salary of his/her employees, but must pay what any said contract with any said person states. No different here. The Administrator may be able to set the tours, but one is singed into contract already. The same goes for OT. The FLHA states when they MUST pay OT, but if a contract is signed stating they will pay OT for X hours, they must pay regardless of when otherwise they must. If the value of an item is 10.00 per unit, but I get the factory to sell it to me for 7.00 per unit, they must sell it to me for 7.00 if a contract is created stating such. Regardless if the value of said item goes up, down, or stays the same. One can't, in the middle of a process, change the price because they want to or a rule says they can set the price. The price was set and agreed upon. A new contract must be made to establish a new price.

Price, hours, tours, colors, hair, discipline, whatever..... without rule of law and the binding of contracts, there is no civilization.

[GottaLaugh]

A contract was signed with the city. As with any contract, it is binding by all parties included. A bank can set the interest rate for car loans it offers, but they must abide by the rate they gave you. A boss can set the salary of his/her employees, but must pay what any said contract with any said person states. No different here. The Administrator may be able to set the tours, but one is singed into contract already. The same goes for OT. The FLHA states when they MUST pay OT, but if a contract is signed stating they will pay OT for X hours, they must pay regardless of when otherwise they must. If the value of an item is 10.00 per unit, but I get the factory to sell it to me for 7.00 per unit, they must sell it to me for 7.00 if a contract is created stating such. Regardless if the value of said item goes up, down, or stays the same. One can't, in the middle of a process, change the price because they want to or a rule says they can set the price. The price was set and agreed upon. A new contract must be made to establish a new price.

Price, hours, tours, colors, hair, discipline, whatever..... without rule of law and the binding of contracts, there is no civilization.

Truth - Its DC Code.

FEMS - READ the contract for Hours of Work/Schedule/Leave. Article 45 Section A states...."Nothing in this article shall be construed to prevent the employer from taking any action that constitutes management's right under DC Official Code (2001 ed) 1-617.08 provided, however, that in taking such action the Employer shall comply with the requirements of Article 6 of the Agreement."

I provided the DC Code above - now go read Article 6 which outlines the process. It will be very difficult for him to do and he will piss off even those who support him or those who want jobs. They are being recruited on 24/72 and will be just as upset as the rest of us.

If you don't have the respect of your men you have no choice but to be a tyrant. Rule by intimidation.

[Confused]

Anyone else want to do any more footwork for the guy? Seriously think before you post sometimes.

[DCFD-Gumby]

Anyone else want to do any more footwork for the guy? Seriously think before you post sometimes.

Do not think the city does not know its laws. The fact that it is in our contract should be proof they are not stupid. Our problem will be the inexperience of the Executive Board to deal with this. So far they have stood by as we lost our polo shirts and shorts. Just look at the ridiculous contract we got out of the last first time inexperienced Union President. Never in the history of L36 has the membership voted down a contract.

[DCFDRescue2]

Do not think the city does not know its laws. The fact that it is in our contract should be proof they are not stupid. Our problem will be the inexperience of the Executive Board to deal with this. So far they have stood by as we lost our polo shirts and shorts. Just look at the ridiculous contract we got out of the last first time inexperienced Union President. Never in the history of L36 has the membership voted down a contract.

Which committee are you a part of that tried to help with the uniform or contract issues?

[DCFD-Gumby]

Which committee are you a part of that tried to help with the uniform or contract issues?
Apparently the same one that no one else was on. I did not run for president of Local 36 knowing I was not qualified. There is a big difference between being a squad captain and dealing with labor management issues. So I stand by my comments that our board is weak. I do not need to be on a committee to see that. I do not see confidence at the hearings. Hell, the fire chief stated he has more labor knowledge than the entire board combined at one of those hearings. So, if this hurts your feelings so be it. Members calling the board clueless goes with the job.

[Hydro Engineer]

Apparently the same one that no one else was on. I did not run for president of Local 36 knowing I was not qualified. There is a big difference between being a squad captain and dealing with labor management issues. So I stand by my comments that our board is weak. I do not need to be on a committee to see that. I do not see confidence at the hearings. Hell, the fire chief stated he has more labor knowledge than the entire board combined at one of those hearings. So, if this hurts your feelings so be it. Members calling the board clueless goes with the job.

:mad:Your WEAK:eek: Our new Union management team is doing a very good job and they are not weak by any means. They are doing what the membership asks them to do. If you believe the Fems Administrator has more knowledge then our Union Board, then you are the worst poker player ever. You only show your cards if no one else has folded and you are all in. This administration is going to fold real soon. I have confidence in our new Union and so do many powerful people in this great city. Go LOCAL 36:D:D:D

[oldhead]

"Hell, the fire chief stated he has more labor knowledge than the entire board combined at one of those hearings." Hahahaha that is RICH. I guess if the fems administrator/political appointee says it, it MUST be true. :eek:

[FEMS Only]

Truth - Its DC Code.

FEMS - READ the contract for Hours of Work/Schedule/Leave. Article 45 Section A states...."Nothing in this article shall be construed to prevent the employer from taking any action that constitutes management's right under DC Official Code (2001 ed) 1-617.08 provided, however, that in taking such action the Employer shall comply with the requirements of Article 6 of the Agreement."

I provided the DC Code above - now go read Article 6 which outlines the process. It will be very difficult for him to do and he will piss off even those who support him or those who want jobs. They are being recruited on 24/72 and will be just as upset as the rest of us.

If you don't have the respect of your men you have no choice but to be a tyrant. Rule by intimidation.

I am not disagreeing with the City (our employer, not the chief) having the right to take any actions. They did set the schedule when they signed the contract. To break said tour would violate a written agreement. You are missing the point I believe with blinders. If a contract was not binding by what it specifically said, there would be no purpose for a contract. The management right still exist, sans what they mutually agreed to in detail in the contract. All other rights still exist is all your quote entails.

[2"ofdanglinfury]

This is an issue that must be bargained for, Straight from the Council...the only way our schedule will change is if we allow the scare tactics to work and we fold on the issue. Stay strong and quit arguing in public about this. There is a forum area on the local website, take it there...

[FEMS Only]

This is an issue that must be bargained for, Straight from the Council...the only way our schedule will change is if we allow the scare tactics to work and we fold on the issue. Stay strong and quit arguing in public about this. There is a forum area on the local website, take it there...

I second that motion. No more on here from me on this issue.

[LincolnHghtLuva]

This is an issue that must be bargained for, Straight from the Council...the only way our schedule will change is if we allow the scare tactics to work and we fold on the issue. Stay strong and quit arguing in public about this. There is a forum area on the local website, take it there...



This is by far the most novel idea yet

[regs1]

To all:

I am closing this thread because it belongs on the local 36 web site - I am not saying that anyone did something wrong, but items posted here can be used by the FD administration for their own purpose.