Hiring standards

[BMIG]

Should the department require all applicants(in the near future) to have at least an associates degree as a pre-requisite for employment. Share your view, pro or con.

[Tk_3_Barman]

I would think not. Not for the average rank and file membership. I do believe you should have educational standards for officer.

There would be no reason not to get it. The city will pay for it. Take advantage of it and put it to good use.

I would rather have an officer that had a strong brain, rather then an officer with a strong back. Thats what I am here for. You "think", I do.

Just my 2 cents.

[Loo for life]

WHY?

No you want to know what to require of new Fireman applicants how about you must have held a job for serveral years in the real world prior to applying that way you will have sometype of work ethic instilled into you....

Now onto the degree, RANT :mad:
The problem with today's U.S. Fire Service is that our leadership and I do use that term loosely! They have collectively gotten smarter and added more fucking letters behind their names such as AA,BS,PHD and of course M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E.

What has that gotten the fire service, hhmm let me see; more Firemen who don't go into a burning building, less firemen on the fireground, less aware/astute firemen when they do arrive on the fireground and more Chief Officers who think that it is better, safer and smarter to have the firemen stay on the outside cause it is just someone's property.

FACT: In my 26 years in the fire service, We have on avg same number of firemen dying each year(2001 excluded) just for a different reasons.

We have training programs that don't mirror the real world, can't drill when it is hazy, hot and humid but our members have to perform in those conditions. But we are the most sensitive firemen in the world, woooo hooooo!

We bundle our firemen up under the auspice of safety and send them into a cheaply built (another college educated guy planned that building) burning structure so that they can (those that do go in) go farther (not realizing it) into it and it now produces darker smoke, faster burning and higher tempetures.

Duuuuh .... yep we need more pieces of paper and books on the fireground to throw at that fire cause god knows with "enuff edumacation" the fire will go out they all do in the end but begs another question(see below).

Whatever happened to Protecting lives and "LIMITING" property damage?

Now in defense of a degree, yes our managers those that handle budgets, politicians etc.. might I say might need a degree, but as for ROOKIES gaaaawwwdd no! No degrees half of them need just to be rookies for awhile and learn the ways of being a fireman.

Just my humble opinion, again.

God Damit stop me I am smelling smoke, thinking entirely too much today!

ME
:cool:

[Hey Slim]

u go loo, looks like a couple of snotty nosed kids that think they know more than us vets. u lose alot of good officer canidates by eleminating them from the prossess because they dont have a piece of paper. the way we do it now is a good system, getting points for your education. if u smart guys can't beat out some dumb ass with no education, well u ant as smart as u thought u where. u young guys always trying 2 think of ways 2 get rid of us old vets. smart ass wipper snappers.

[Hey Slim]

Rookies should have 2 live n the city at least thru probation, maybe the first 2 or 3 yrs on the job! that should be the only standard. they could actualy learn there job!!!!

[TCosgroveJones]

Lets see :rolleyes:
A piece of paper versus OJT.. :confused:

I think for the Average Line Officer , that being a Sgt or Lt. I have to disagree with Trk3Barman. I want to be with an officer that has been around for awhile, been in busy Companies and most of all a guy that learned his trade from the OLD SCHOOL. :)

We do have a process for getting that piece of paper and the points it gives you on a promo exam. If you want it go get it. More Power to ya. It will help you be a better manager not a better Fireman. Your only going to be a better fireman by going to fires and drilling on the basics and thinking ouside of the box.
Just my thoughts. I got to go feed the horses now. :p

Cosgr :D ve

[Tk_3_Barman]

Lt. don't get me wrong. As usual I believe I used the wrong words for what I was trying to say.
I do believe you should have street smarts passed down from officer to officer, firefighter to firefighter.
However.......drum roll please........I think the officer should in most cases know more then the rank and file.
Better that time?


Peace

[Hey Slim]

Tk 3 Barman

I think the reason officers have been dumb down is the assessment center portion of the exam. few people study anymore because they figure they can bs there way through. before the assessment center came along u had 2 read the books and u look at most of your old officers, they know the books inside and out, (the few that are left). also there for awhile all u had 2 do was write your name 4 Lt. that didnt help. but I think alot of the guys that thought that was going 2 happen this time have found out thats not the case anymore. u may accually have 2 study 2 make Lt.all in all I think things will get better, but that assessment center is bs.

[Tk_3_Barman]

I really don't know much about the testing for officers, and how the test really works. I for one have never taken the test for advancement in the department. I am not by any means bad mouthing the current officers of this fine department either. I just believe there should be some type of continued education for them.
I do agree with you about older officers seeming to know the books word for word. There a quite a few officers who I really want to end up like in my career. I know most of them do not have much more education then myself prior to employment with the city. Once again I will state they are super officers and I love working with and for them. However times are changing in the departments across the country not just in our own. It is much, much, much, need I say much more political now then when some of our best officers of past took their position as a Sgt., Lt., Or captain. They are required to have more book knowledge then before. Not because it was not important before but, they used to go to fires.........We don't. They were able to get the experience they needed to by going to 3, 4, 5 fires a tour. When have we in the last few years been able to say that? We are lucky to go to that many in a month of tours.
I guess what I am trying to say is it is much different now then 10 years ago. We still have the old salty dogs of days past, but they will be retiring soon. Then what? who will pass on all this experience? You can know a lot of information but if you don't use it you lose it. I just think with continuing education it might keep it fresher in peoples minds. ;)

[Hey Slim]

OK Barman u wont say it, so I will. There are some sorry Officers on this job, and people might say im one of them. but thats ok because ive spent my whole career pissen people off. alot of it is because there 2 f***ing lazy 2 do the job. they dont pull lines if theres nothing showing, (2 lazy 2 pack the hose back on the wagon) they take the short and easy way instead of the way it should be done. if guys just did things the way they should be done and pass that on we would be better off. if we could burn in the burn building that would be nice. stop treating rookies that have some experience like there the best. there still piece of shit rookies,. it been that way 4 over a 100 years and thats a good tradition. u need 2 know the dc way and its our fault 4 not given them that Knowldge, sorry got off track. book smarts r ok but as a front line officer, its the experience.

[tekrsq]

I could substitute "Richmond" in place of DC, and have the same conversation. Hold on tight guys, the SHIT is everywhere, and it's only getting deeper !!!!!!!

[captain4life]

Education and the fire service:

At one time the NFPA had an idea that F/F I, II, III would give everyone a basic knowledge for firefighting and be able to work as a firefighter anywhere in the US, this concept was extended to include Officer ranks {O-I,II,III }. In the course of history this just did not occur.
Move up in history, statewide certification programs seem to have taken NFPA place, In FL, to work as a F/F, you either must first process the FLA F/F state certificate before applying for the job, or be able to obtain one shortly afterward. What has occurred there is that a F/F can just about lateral transfer throughout the state.
El Toro, while the idea is good, there seems to be problems within. On a state level, you might get applicants pool you wish, but you also eliminate some potential employees. Not everyone will wish to obtain a certificate that can be used in one locality only. On a city level this problem would increase, and probably will eliminate the application pool we now draw on.

Officer education, DCFD has one in place- basically if you have a 4yr degree you will receive 15 points for it, [5 for each rank] – Hey Slim while you have a somewhat valid point, I kind of see it different problem, I see officers not studying [or even taking a promotion test] because they like the position their in, and do not wish to be promoted. I have conferred with some Lt’s ask why they did not take the captains test, most common answer is they do not wish to go through the crap the current Capt’s are going through. I personally believe what is occurring on the promotion process is an indication of a bigger problem.

BFC and above, this issue is already somewhat resolved in the council bill B15-32. The fire chief now has to come up with the requirements that candidates must meet to become a BFC, DFC. I believe he still has 60 days before he must submit them to the mayor, and city council.

[Brooks]

Cos, & other old folks. In your day, a H.S. diploma meant something more than it does now. If DC required 60h of college, it would eliminate many, but not most applicants from being eligible to apply. With fewer applicants per vacancy it gets easier to ask for and justify pay raises. Promotions should continue to recieve educational points, however, it should be based on any degree, not just a UDC fire science degree, and it should include additional points for advanced degrees. Perhaps 2 more points on the captains list.

Same theory goes for having a real IAFF CPAT vs. a watered-down DCFEMS PAT, and a Pass/Fail grade on the entrance exam.

[Hey Slim]

Brooks, we've seen your idea's on here before. try not 2 fuck the job up anymore!

besides, u only have a minute on the job

[catseyes]

The problem with treating rookies in the exact same way that we have for the last hundred years is that the rookies we get today are not the same as the rookies we once got. Even the classes of people about to retire were different in composition than the ones now. Once, if you were to look at a list of previous occupations for recruits, the trades would be heavily represented, along with the military. Now, there are a lot of rookies coming on the job who have no experience with physical labor.

While I don't think it's gotten that bad here, I have heard horror stories about recruits that need to be shown which end of a wrench is which (although, thinking back, there were some winners in the classes I've seen). In and of itself, this mandates a change in the way that rookies are treated. While expectations should remain at the same level, the emphasis for these folks needs to be on drilling in basic skills.

Also, on average, recruits are older. Simply look at the difference in age between what is written in the Rules and Regs and what is on the current job announcements to start with. I'm not sure that some of the thinking on how to treat rookies is valid when applied to these older rookies. Sure, they are the lowest of the low, but they simply don't need the same things in terms of discipline, etc.

[Hey Slim]

thats bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and your fromclass 33what??????????????????????????????

[Loo for life]

Please tell me you are smoking some good shit catseye.....

That would explain your theory on rookies! Good fucking thing you are not one of my rookies!

There is more reason now to treat rookies like the low man on the tote pole then there ever was, most of these young men and women come on this job with the following and just so you know it doesn't matter male, female, black or white:

a) The job owes them
b) I know everything
c) Treat me with respect
d) Rules they're not for me
e) I will tell my friend the BFC or the Capt whomever etc..

The best thing for all rookies/cadets is to come in in the following manner:

a) Show deference to the Officers and Members already in place
b) Soak up all the info you can
c) Practice the art of Humility
d) EARN the respect of your fellow firemen
e) Be in grossed in your studies
f) Do what you are told to do
g) If you don't know how ask, don't pretend you do know how
h) If you have a better idea how to do something offer it up suggestively not
in a know it all manner it just may be accepted with a " good job &
thanks"

So you see the old firemen came on, no matter what they knew they knew how to follow the above it was a tradition we can keep going cause it is the right way. You must earn your way in life!

[Hey Slim]

great post again piggy, your on a role today :D

most know what I think of rookies, but if u don't, call ozzie at E-10 #3 and ask him.

he lived it :eek:

[catseyes]

I'm not saying that rookies should not do all the things that they once did, however, the things that need to be taught to them have changed. And I definitely agree that there are a lot of people that come on the job thinking:


a) The job owes them
b) I know everything
c) Treat me with respect
d) Rules they're not for me
e) I will tell my friend the BFC or the Capt whomever etc..


Unfortunately, what that means is that still more adjustments in how you, the officer, cope with them have to be made. It means your job is harder. I don't envy you in dealing with the Y generation.

My other statements referred to an article I read, describing a study. I can give you the reference if you want.

[TCosgroveJones]

I can't believe we are going over this again. :eek:
Brooks you are an IDIOT and educated one no less. Give me a break. Sure Im old but ya know I learn something new everyday. You on the other hand , and this is the way I saw it, thought you might get over and go ththe HM for a break and then come back to E-15. WRONG. :D Now I want to know if your in bed with Catseyes??? :confused:

Rookies are the lowest form of life and I don't care how old they are, where they came from or who they know. or how much Vol experiance they got. Ya know why I don't care ? Cause that was me when I got on this job and a very old ( dam there is that word again) and wise Fireman told me to the following:
1 Keep your mouth shut
2 Sit at the Watch Desk
3 Study your probation
4 Never Ever Say This is how we do it in the County
5 Never be late for work get there 2 hours early
6 Get on the fire truck when it leaves the Firehouse
7 Go to Retirement Parties
8 If you have no previous job experiance in anything. Then this is your opportunity of a lifetime.
It worked for me .
My Thoughts
Cosgr :D ve

[2"ofdanglinfury]

I have to agree with TC. The rookies today are a bunch of cry bitches. They all have feelings that need to be massaged. But I blame alot of it on the instructors at the training acad for not instilling in them the RESPECT for those that came before them.

[citywide]

Heeyyyyy, Hold on there buckaroo,

Ya can't blame ALL the instructors!!! The class I taught over the summer had some MAJOR discipline instilled in them. And as a result, the majority are very good, well disciplined, lower-than-whale-shit probationers. But, there will always be a few who never reached the whale-shit status, and sometimes you just can't do a damn thing about it. I mean, when they screw up, and you take it out on them by way of the tower, bear-crawls, push-ups, etc., and it doesn't even phase them, then it becomes very frustrating. As a result, I have learned that some people just can NOT be disciplined AT ALL!!!

Cosgrove's 8 points of enlightenment are the VERY exact wise words that myself and Steve Sandy grilled into their heads from day one. And reiterated the same many times right before they got out.

And the reason we treated them this way??

1) because they were lower-than-whale-shit recruits
2) it is a great way to instill discipline
3) because that's the way I was treated when I was in recruit school (hey, what comes around, goes around--haha)
4) ultimately, it made for a better learning environment

And as a result, we turned out a very good class of recruits. Now, what happens to them when they hit the streets is a different story. But, they did know what they had to do when they left.

Catseyes, age is NOT a factor in how a rookie should be treated. EVERYONE needs some form of discipline. Everyone gets treated the SAME. Never look at their age, look at the amount of time on the job.

NEVER, EVER should recruits be treated with kid gloves, and hugged and cuddled. Let those California bleeding-heart liberals instill discipline in their fireFIGHTERS that way. We are the District of Columbia Fire Department. We turn out fireMEN (used generically for men and women) and harsh discipline is the only way to do that.

'Nuff said,
Wally

[Phantom]

I can't believe we are going over this again. :eek:
Brooks you are an IDIOT and educated one no less. Give me a break. Sure Im old but ya know I learn something new everyday. You on the other hand , and this is the way I saw it, thought you might get over and go ththe HM for a break and then come back to E-15. WRONG. :D Now I want to know if your in bed with Catseyes??? :confused:

Rookies are the lowest form of life and I don't care how old they are, where they came from or who they know. or how much Vol experiance they got. Ya know why I don't care ? Cause that was me when I got on this job and a very old ( dam there is that word again) and wise Fireman told me to the following:
1 Keep your mouth shut
2 Sit at the Watch Desk
3 Study your probation
4 Never Ever Say This is how we do it in the County
5 Never be late for work get there 2 hours early
6 Get on the fire truck when it leaves the Firehouse
7 Go to Retirement Parties
8 If you have no previous job experiance in anything. Then this is your opportunity of a lifetime.
It worked for me .
My Thoughts
Cosgr :D ve

9. Don't post on thewatchdesk.com
10. Learn how to make coffee

[Phantom]

And the reason we treated them this way??


3) because that's the way I was treated when I was in recruit school (hey, what comes around, goes around--haha)


'Nuff said,
Wally

We had instructors:)?

[Phantom]

Compare this article http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=46&id=36804 to how we handle the recruitment and hiring process.

[dccaptain1995]

I bet that they have more than one person in the recruiting office. :o

[Greenshield]

11. Take care of the flag...otherwise you will hear the "Star Spangled Banner" over the intercom at 0200. You will then wipe the sleep from your eyes wondering why it's being played, for a few seconds, just before a horror washes over you as you realize......doh......the flag.

12. Drive your district and take notes.

13.Make your own info book, ASAP, and hide it when not in use.

[Southeast Jerk]

14. Do the dishes and do not complain until you do not have to wear that red tag.
15. Just cause you came from EMS, or were a volunteer somewhere or even paid in another department does not mean shit. You came to DC FIRE for a reason so earn your keep.
16.Take you officers bottle back to the apparatus, if it needs to be changed out then change it.
17.GET TO WORK EARLY and wash the fire truck
It might sound like alot, but you are not the first to have done it, so do it and do it with a smile.

[flammable]

18. The person around the firehouse that thinks he/she is the biggest hero, is not afraid to tell you the same, parades the burnt gear/helmet, and tells stories that start " I ran this fire once that..." STAY AWAY FROM THAT CLOWN. Pain and stupidity are this "heros" best friend.

If you feel the need to tell people how good you are means you have a 99% chance of being full of shit. I have seen alot of so called "heros" in smokey hallways screaming like bitches, hanging in stairways, or just hiding in the box alarm. Just becareful who you listen too.

[bad boys]

hey southeast jerk, you ever think back to when you were a rookie or low person on the chain, how it felt. "HAZING ISN'T NECCESSARY" just maybe if you sat down with the new people and explained to them "this is how its done" and "why it's done this way" you'd problably get better results. Remember treat others the way you would like to be treated. 2 wrongs don't make a right. 1 other thing so what if they come from EMS, volunteered, and other departments some of these persons come in highly trained, very well educated and highly experienced. TRY BUILDING UPON THAT JUST ONCE YOU MIGHT GET GOOD RESULTS!!!!!!

if your talking about the shitbags of the departments, your right, they should pack their shit up and get the fuck out!!!!! WENDYS IS ALWAYS HIRING.....we don't need hotshots, to good to listen, and legends in their own minds!!!!!! see ya....

[flammable]

Bad boys, Now I will agree that the department should take full advantage of a persons skills no matter where he/she learned them and the "legend" mentality, but ROOKIES ARE LOWER THAN WHALESHIT! PERIOD. It was like that for me and it taught me how to respect the job. That is what has been lost...RESPECT.

[TCosgroveJones]

Bad boys, Now I will agree that the department should take full advantage of a persons skills no matter where he/she learned them and the "legend" mentality, but ROOKIES ARE LOWER THAN WHALESHIT! PERIOD. It was like that for me and it taught me how to respect the job. That is what has been lost...RESPECT.



AMEN BROTHER


Cosgr :D ve

[Southeast Jerk]

Bad boys, No one said anything about hazing, I was just stating that it is how it should be done. I do remember when I was a probie and that is why I feel the way I do. It was my job to do the dishes wash the engine and the truck. I came to work early. It made me a better firefighter for a few reasons, If somebody is doing a project in quarters I won't just sit and watch them, I will help. If for some reason I am not at work by 5:45 I will get a phone call. Instead of being these minute men and women who you do not call till 7 ,cause that is when they usually show up, and then they are awol and want a stand by....NOT.... 1 other thing so what if they come from EMS, volunteered, and other departments some of these persons come in highly trained, very well educated and highly experienced. TRY BUILDING UPON THAT JUST ONCE YOU MIGHT GET GOOD RESULTS!!!!!!

That is fine, what I was saying was just do not act like since you come from somewhere and have knowledge you do not have to put up the flag, do the dishes, wash the apparatus etc......YOU ARE STILL A ROOKIE not matter how highly trained you are. I think you took it all the wrong way bad boys