Scary John Kerry [Archive] - Firefighter Forums @ The WatchDesk

Emtmom

10-27-2004, 09:10 AM

I could personally care less what any 2 (or more) people of any sex consentually do in the privacy of their own domicile. However, when a segment of society wants special rights-- that will cost me money-- because of their particular sexual activities, I gotta draw the line. OK, I gotta ask how gay marriage is going to cost you money? All they are asking for is the same rights other married couples have, is that so wrong? My feeling is, as long as they keep it in the privacy of thier own home (as you said), what is the big deal? Why should they not be allowed to put thier partner on thier health ins., after all they pay for it.
Keeping it in the privacy of your own home goes for all couples, call me old fashioned, but I don't like to see couples on a street mauling each other. It's not something I want to see, it's not something I want to have to explain to my kids. You want to do that, take it home, or get a room.
This country is supposed to allow EQUAL rights for EVERYONE! And yet, here comes the descrimination (sp?), whenever it suits us and our beliefs. This isn't just about gay rights, it's about all our rights. When I went to school, if you didn't want to say the pledge of alliegence, you sat in your chair and were quiet, it was no big deal. NOW, because some religous groups and people who don't believe in god don't like it, the rest of us can't say it?
Everytime someone, or some group doesn't like something they want the rest of us to stop it too, well if it isn't hurting you, then leave it alone.
This country is (as my dad used to say) going to hell in a hand basket!
No matter who wins this election, we all need to keep a close eye on all of our politicians, and starting with congress and the senate, make them accountable for what they are doing!
There is only one person who has the right to judge us, and when our time comes he will do just that.

Sorry didn't mean to go off on a tangent. I'll shove the soapbox back under the table now and sit back down.

gerry_58

10-27-2004, 06:10 PM

"OK, I gotta ask how gay marriage is going to cost you money?"

Increased cost of, or general elimination of, spousal health insurance; increased taxes for and/or reduction of benefits for spouses under Social Security (the extra cost has to come from somewhere eventually), increased income taxes and/or elimination/reduction of spousal deductions (to make up for the loss of revenue from add'l joint filings), just to name a few instances.

"All they are asking for is the same rights other married couples have, is that so wrong?"

The have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex, just like everyone else. They are asking for special rights.

"My feeling is, as long as they keep it in the privacy of thier own home (as you said), what is the big deal?"

Because, with gay marriage, it is now out of the privacy of their own home. The gov't has now sanctioned the relationship. At that point, the covertly gay schoolteacher of your 2nd grader can now put a pix of his "husband/wife" on their desk, hug and kiss them when they stop by, and tell the children all about it, and that this behavior is just fine. It this the morality you want taught to your children?

"Why should they not be allowed to put their partner on thier health ins., after all they pay for it."

No, employees pay a small portion of the cost of dependant health ins. Your employer pays most of it. And when their already skyrocketing costs go up even further, what do you think is going to happen the the other employees premiums and benefits???

"It's not something I want to see, it's not something I want to have to explain to my kids."

What are you going to do then; when it's your child's teacher, scoutmaster, daycare provider, healthcare worker, etc, that you have to explain their openly gay behavior for?

"When I went to school, if you didn't want to say the pledge of alliegence, you sat in your chair and were quiet, it was no big deal. NOW, because some religous groups and people who don't believe in god don't like it, the rest of us can't say it?"

Agreed. But that's a whole different subject. Freedom OF Religion is not Freedom FROM Religion.

Emtmom

10-27-2004, 07:18 PM

Increased cost of, or general elimination of, spousal health insurance; increased taxes for and/or reduction of benefits for spouses under Social Security (the extra cost has to come from somewhere eventually), increased income taxes and/or elimination/reduction of spousal deductions (to make up for the loss of revenue from add'l joint filings), just to name a few instances.

OK, I get the health ins. thing, I would guess that would be up to the employer, I know some companies already do it.
About SS what about all the spouses who have never worked? Or those who worked for a few years, then stayed home with the kids. I know it's not as prevelent these days as it once was, but we are paying for every one who has never worked a day in thier lives now. We are also shelling out for every person who got disability and started collecting years before they were supposed to. Don't get me wrong, I know we need to support these people, so do you only draw a line because a person is gay?

Because, with gay marriage, it is now out of the privacy of their own home. The gov't has now sanctioned the relationship. At that point, the covertly gay schoolteacher of your 2nd grader can now put a pix of his "husband/wife" on their desk, hug and kiss them when they stop by, and tell the children all about it, and that this behavior is just fine. It this the morality you want taught to your children?

I would expect that my kids would learn morality at HOME, where they should. Morality is not something I expect anyone else to teach my kids. Would they ask questions, maybe, maybe not. If they do, I would be there to answer them.
Sexuality is NOT something that is learned, it's something you feel. You can't MAKE someone gay.

What are you going to do then; when it's your child's teacher, scoutmaster, daycare provider, healthcare worker, etc, that you have to explain their openly gay behavior for?
I would EXPECT them, as I EXPECT a straight teacher,scoutmaster, or whoever to keep that in thier own home! My children already know that everyone is different, in alot of ways. They are being taught to accept people for who they are.

What will you do if your teen comes home and tells you they are gay? Will you love them less, will you just accept that because of the way they feel they are now second class citizens? Would you turn your back on them?
Is it against the bible, yes, but like I said in my last post, the man upstairs will do the judging when the time comes.

hog

10-27-2004, 07:34 PM

it still don`t mean we have to accept that lifestyle

iaff4me

10-27-2004, 09:56 PM

Hopewell, if you are voting with your NY brothers you will be voting John Kerry for president. The NY city local EXECUTIVE board voted for endorsing Bush. The executive board is not like the electoral college, it does not reflect the voice of the membership( well after 2000 maybe it is). The NY state firefighters are endorsing Kerry. All hail the next president - John Kerry.

gerry_58

10-27-2004, 10:24 PM

"I would guess that would be up to the employer, I know some companies already do it."

NOW it is up to the employer. I have no problem with that. A company can offer whatever benefits it chooses. If it wants to cater to gays, so be it. If gay marriage is legitimized, then companies that offer spousal coverage will be legally obligated to also offer it to gay couples.

"About SS what about all the spouses who have never worked? Or those who worked for a few years, then stayed home with the kids."

That's what the program of spousal SS benefits was intended for.

"I know we need to support these people, so do you only draw a line because a person is gay?"

I draw the line where women who gave up careers to have/raise kids need to be provided for. Not homosexual couples.

"I would expect that my kids would learn morality at HOME, where they should. Morality is not something I expect anyone else to teach my kids."

If you don't believe that all a child's/young adult's role models have an impact on their morality, you are awful naive.

"Sexuality is NOT something that is learned, it's something you feel. You can't MAKE someone gay."

The jury's still out on that one. Personally, I think it's a combination of genetic tendancies, and social factors and triggers-- pretty much like alcoholism.

"I would EXPECT them, as I EXPECT a straight teacher,scoutmaster, or whoever to keep that in thier own home!"

Once gay marriage is legitimized, it is out of their home. A pix of a heterosexual couple on the school librarian's desk provokes nothing, but when it's Bob and Bruce intimately hugging, it opens up contraversy.

"What will you do if your teen comes home and tells you they are gay?"

Get them to the best sexual disorder shrink I can afford, and go from there.

iaff4me

10-27-2004, 10:34 PM

Hopewell I apologize for that prior post. It was intended for "No Fear". I got so consumed with my thoughts I didn't read it all the way through. All hail the next president - John Kerry.

iaff4me

10-27-2004, 10:43 PM

Now that is something SCARY to talk about. I want to hear those die hard Bush supporters say something that he has done for the fire service. Anybody?

No Fear

10-27-2004, 10:46 PM

Iaff, may I asked where you got your info. at. I was in New York City and spoke with three station houses where they all were in favorite for BUSH. Also I spoke with four counties in Maryland (IAFF Members) and it appears that the union members had no voice in the endorsement for president. In fact it pissed them off so much that they are also endorsing Bush going against the wishes of the Board (which I personnally witnessed). To me it sounds like some underhanded politics with some of the executive board to gain positions in some cabinets ( I guess if Kerry wins we will see won't we). Just stating facts that I learned and I for one really want to know the truth is. Do you really think I'm going to get it before election day or will the writing be on the wall after.

Mom, why go to their websites to learn their plans , why can't they say it in public instead of saying I got a plan. Well ( I'll be nice this time) whats the plan?

All in All no matter who wins it will be over in less then a week and it will be business as usual. Hopefully we can once again be in the same brotherhood.

For now I'm going what God intended _ Dick and BUSH

iaff4me

10-27-2004, 11:25 PM

No Fear, I can not tell you my sources but the executive board of the NY city local voted 5 to 2 to endorse Bush without consulting their membership. The bottom line is that the IAFF endorses candidates both GOP and DEM that have a consistent voting record for firefighter issues. Bush has been the most anti-firefighter president of all time(while standing at ground zero on 9/12 saying I will help you guys out). You state firehouses in Maryland that are Bush I can state you firehouses in Va. that are Kerry. The IAFF DOES NOT tell you who to vote for just presents the facts. The facts are evident Bush could care less about you, you don't make enough money to be in the same room as him. Still waiting some pro-Bush supporters to say what he has done for the fire service? All hail the next president - John Kerry.

jkelly2

10-27-2004, 11:53 PM

http://www.georgewbush.com/FirstResponders/BushRecord.aspx
http://www.georgewbush.com/FirstResponders/Comparison.aspx?area=2

Taken from the source, make your own interpretations.
John Kerry's website says that President Bush failed to ensure that first responders are well equiped. Credibility is lost when in that same sentence, President Bush is blamed for sending troops to war without body armor. No mention is made that Senator Kerry voted for a bill which would have alloted funds for Iraq, that is, before he voted against it. Still I do not understand what that means. But hey, at least he showed up for a vote, right?

kep.ctc

10-28-2004, 02:36 AM

Bush is attempting to make the world a better place for all persons to be treated fairly.

On 9/11 as I watched the television in dismay of the events that had taken place in the city of New York, Pentagon and that field in Pa. Pres. Bush handled the incident the best way he could at the time. He continued to read to the children in that school and remained calm in the wake of the worst tragdedy to face the United States since World war 2 oh thats right on Clintons watch the COLE and WORLD TRADE 1 and we bombed a aspirin factory oh that was Lewinsky.

On 9-12 the President made a decision to visit the site of ground zero. To me personally that was an still is very uplifting.

Take a minute and think had Gore been elected oh thats right per the DNC and disinfranchised Florida he was (LMAO). It would have been the United States fault and we would have apologized for being a so called bully to other nations. In other words we should be glad to have a President with balls.

JOHN F KERRY Stands for the United Nations, Gun Bans for law abiding citizens (CRIMINALS DO NOT BUY WEAPONS AT GUN SHOWS!!!!!!!), Oh yeah raped pilleged but got three purple hearts or did he give them back or was it just the ribbons.

Also most national parks were given and or sold to the United Nations during CUMSTAIN ADMIN!!!!

Emtmom

10-28-2004, 11:09 AM

Mom, why go to their websites to learn their plans , why can't they say it in public instead of saying I got a plan. Well ( I'll be nice this time) whats the plan?

All in All no matter who wins it will be over in less then a week and it will be business as usual. Hopefully we can once again be in the same brotherhood.
I went to the websites to see what they had to say without all the bashing. I am interested in what they have to say about the issues...NOT, who did what in the 70's. I grew up then, I don't need the history lesson! I found the Washington Post page of thier opinions side by side very helpful. Just opinions and how they felt about the issues...not other crap to deal with. Being a registered independent, no one sends you anything, they don't really care about our votes....HUGE mistake for all candidates...no matter what office they are running for.
All I have to say is THANK GOD it will be over in a week! I am so sick of it all!

xploded

10-28-2004, 12:22 PM

Kerry's only plan is what ever he thinks you want to hear. If you must vote for him then be prepared for what will follow. In my mind Hanoi John is a disgrace and a joke. That is my opinion and there is no way he is qualified to be President. Sorry to all you libs if I offended your guy but he has offended me many times.

Quacker

10-28-2004, 12:46 PM

Well, he looks like a flamer and he shakes hands like a female!!!

Don't think I would like to be alone in the same room with him. Maybe Edwards likes too!

:D

Think Logically

10-28-2004, 02:38 PM

Great post and answers gerry. The debate about homosexuality can go on forever.

IAFF 4 me;

Are you that narrow minded that the only deciding question to your vote is what has Bush done for the fire service? The fire service is a very important topic; however, there are many other important topics.

Out of curiousity, has Kerry done anything for the fire service? If you call and ask him I'm sure he will tell you........"well, uh...no, I mean yes, well I don't know..........then again...........blah, blah, blah"

Think Logically

10-28-2004, 02:57 PM

The facts are evident Bush could care less about you, you don't make enough money to be in the same room as him. Still waiting some pro-Bush supporters to say what he has done for the fire service? All hail the next president - John Kerry.

So you are trying to say Kerry cares about us? I highly doubt that. Right now he's pretending to like everyone, he's got to try to get votes.

Is this election BUSH vs. KERRY, or is it more realistic to say this election is

BUSH vs. ANYBODY BUT BUSH

Ask around, how many are voting for Kerry because he will be a good president? Many desire to vote for him because they don't want Bush, and many will even admit that he's not a good candidate for president. Then you have the people crying, such as the IAFF, " he hasn't done anything for me, let's vote for another person who hasn't done anything for me either".

LET'S WIN WITH A BUSH LANDSLIDE

Fghtng5thFemale

10-28-2004, 04:56 PM

So you are trying to say Kerry cares about us? I highly doubt that. Right now he's pretending to like everyone, he's got to try to get votes.

Is this election BUSH vs. KERRY, or is it more realistic to say this election is

BUSH vs. ANYBODY BUT BUSH

Ask around, how many are voting for Kerry because he will be a good president? Many desire to vote for him because they don't want Bush, and many will even admit that he's not a good candidate for president. Then you have the people crying, such as the IAFF, " he hasn't done anything for me, let's vote for another person who hasn't done anything for me either".

LET'S WIN WITH A BUSH LANDSLIDE

I agree with Think Logically. Kerry is just saying whatever he has to so he wins the election. It's politics people and there is very little that is honest about it. Don't vote for Kerry just because he isn't Bush. That is the wrong reason.

hog

10-28-2004, 07:27 PM

wow 5th we agree on this also......all i have to say is remember what John Kerry did after he only spent 4 months in Vietnam and our GI`S were getting killed.....screw Kerry

burning85

10-28-2004, 07:31 PM

"Don't vote for Kerry just because he isn't Bush. That is the wrong reason."

really good point 5th!!!! ive heard so many people say....between the two Kerry is the lesser of the two evils..so that is what they are going to vote on!!! that is a ridiculous reason to make a decision on... to everyone out there...make up your own mind, form your own opinions, be informed, do your research!!!

Chia6004

10-28-2004, 09:27 PM

WTF did CTC just say? Sitting like a deer in the head lights was the correct thing to do??? If Gore had been president you republicans would be tearing him apart for not doing his job and freezing up. BTW there is a diff between staying calm and locking up, GW did the latter on that day. FYI, CPS ( California proffesional Firefighters) have endorsed Kerry.

As for kerry being weak, you've got to be joking me, Bush, the cheerleader is more rough and tumble then a decorated war veteran??

In case you can't tell I'm voting for Kerry. :)

hog

10-28-2004, 09:35 PM

chia6004......look into everything before you vote........let me ask you a few questions....first do you own a gun ?.....do you hunt?....are you a vet?....if you said yes to any or all you had better not vote for Kerry

Chia6004

10-28-2004, 10:13 PM

My answer to all three of those questions is a no.

Hopewell

10-28-2004, 10:13 PM

Hopewell I apologize for that prior post. It was intended for "No Fear". I got so consumed with my thoughts I didn't read it all the way through. All hail the next president - John Kerry.Iaff4me, I took no offense. In fact, I take no offense to any opinion as long as ideas and arguments are presented intelligently and politely.

But let me state why I feel the way I do, for I vote my conscience, I vote my intellect, and I vote for what I believe is the the betterment of our future, our country, our family, and our lives at home and abroad.

In the frightening world we all live in today, Should I vote for the candidate that believes we can do better? Or the one who tells me to "stay the course" when "the course" has lead to U.S. servicemen and women being killed by Iraqi road side bombs, American and British civilians beheaded as they scream on the internet, or burned alive in Fallujah. This "course" makes untold war profiteers and mercenaries (Halliburton) and oil men wealthy, on the wasteful dime (or 4 to 10 times that, depending on the contract) of the average American taxpayer.

We are bullies and imperialists in the world's eye. If America is going to stand for something, let it be righteousness, liberty, and freedom. With the Patriot Act in effect, citizens detained without trial in Guantanamo Bay, an occupying force in a foreign land with no exit strategy, and a rise in world distrust, anger, and resentment, why would I want to vote for someone whose policies are the principal reason for this?

We are no longer fighting a war on terror. We are fighting a war on Iraq. And since we have toppled their government, we aren't even fighting Saddam Hussein anymore. We're just killing Iraqi people and having our brave troops die in the process. For what, Homeland Security? So as lives are lost, I ask you how exactly am I safer at home as a result of this action, not just at the point of invasion, but as it continues today? I don't feel safer. I feel loathed across the world. Because our current president is unable or unwilling to see beyond his "yes" men, his wealthy and sheltered upbringing, his own well documented mediocrity, his own admitted lack of interest in intellectual curiosity or pursuit, (Laura handles all that "book" stuff, me I'm a folksy, get ta know 'ya kinda guy) and his misguidance and misinterpretation of faith.

BTW, I don't want a folksy, get ta know 'ya type of guy fer Pres-dent of tha Yoo-nited States. I gots me plenny uv friends ta drink a cup a' coffee wif, set fer a spell, and do sum huntin' later. I want the President of The United States of America to be the absolute smartest guy available. This nation and this world have complex problems. If I need my cattle herded, then G.W.'s my guy. But I need someone to make my life better and safer.

I am sickened and angered at every head cut off on the TV and computer screens of the world. But as much as I blame the evil doers for the act, I can't absolve the party responsible for putting them in the position. You don't dance in the snakepit and get upset when you get bitten. You get the hell out, and let the snakes be.

Chia6004

10-28-2004, 11:57 PM

^^^ Well said.

No Fear

10-29-2004, 01:12 AM

Well Chia, this is America, and you do have the right to vote for whoever you want. Thats you God given right.I am fully aware Ca. FF have endorsed Kerry, however once again is this something that a few board and executive members decide without the rank and file voting. It seems with all IAFF members I spoke with I have been told they had no vote at all and I believe that has occurred in more states with only a few making the decision for many.

Also there is discussion that Bush is anti - firefighter. I really not going to debate this because I just don't know alot about the subject. However I do know that Bush did go to New York during the events from 9/11 and met with FF and cops. Did Kerry make an apperance, I don't think so. There is an very large amount of grant money being awarded to fire departments from the federal gov't right now. Bush took the time to stop during the Republican Convention and made it a point to speak with the cops and FF for a extended period of time. I saw this with my own to eyes. And what is Kerry's plan for the fire service, I not aware of any, but I maybe wrong. So right now I got to go on my gut right now and go with the president. Not bashing anyone opinion , just giving my own.

For now I'm going with what God had intended - Dick and Bush

Chia6004

10-29-2004, 01:34 AM

Actually no, most of the Firefighters that I talk to are going to vote for Kerry and those that aren't are only going to vote for bush because he was pushing the anti gay legslation, and they still believe that hussein had wmds and was responsible for 9/11, ignorance must be bliss.

As for Bush talking to Firefighters, how does that make him good for Firefighters? It was a good photo op, ever since 9/11 the public has been viewing us as gods, he took some time out to visit the people that are revered as heroes now, that was no different then the flight suit, the picture at Mt Rushmore are the school where he froze.

He also came to So Cal after are Fire Siege last year and talked to us, I couldn't help but think if we would have got that federal relief money when we asked for it 10 months prior to the siege it could have been avoided. FYI we asked the federal govt to declare San Bernardino NF, Clevland NF, etc diaster areas due to the bug kill months before those weeks and we were turned down.

The president used those weeks to push his bills through congress, the healthy forest bill is partly right but mostly wrong, are forests are overgrown but you will not fix the issue by allowing lumber companys free rights at the trees, old growth stands included, we still havent seen the money we were promised by the feds to upgrade staffing on are state rides year round, as it stands right now we roll state enines with two person staffing. three-four during the peak of fire season, which never closes in So Cal anymore.

I don't want to start an argument with any Bush supporters just calling it as I see it.

No Fear

10-29-2004, 02:14 AM

Chia I don't consider you bashing me for our differences, it just our opinions. You have some valid statements. Like I said I am not debating because I truly don't know alot about it. Your west coast I'm east coast. But I will disagree with you on the photo op during 9/11. I find it hard to believe that the President of the United States would stoop that low for publicity at WTC. No matter if it was Bush or Kerry. But no one has offer any plan from Kerry either. Again what is his plan. What has Kerry done for the fire service. I truly would like to know. I truly don't believe however if Bush or Kerry wins that we will ever be safe. I don't give a fuck who you are, NO ONE knew that the WTC and the Pentagon were going to be attack that day, no one knew the WTC was going to bombed earlier. We might be able to predict that terror might strike again, however we cannot predict where, no matter who the president is. Bin Laden woke a sleeping giant that day. Bottom line

TaskForce

10-29-2004, 08:16 AM

JOHN F KERRY Stands for the United Nations, Gun Bans for law abiding citizens (CRIMINALS DO NOT BUY WEAPONS AT GUN SHOWS!!!!!!!),

Also most national parks were given and or sold to the United Nations during CUMSTAIN ADMIN!!!!

Please tell us what you know about the United Nations for a fact, not what you have heard. Not WFUNA, not UNAUSA, but the UN.

Also, for everyone else, remember that FDNY has two locals, one for firefighters, one for officers. Locals 94 and 854 respectively, I think...

FyrFytrFarmer

10-29-2004, 09:57 AM

I am new to the thread but, will have to put my two cents in. I have to admit, Bush did not have much of an agenda when he was elected. But, after 9/11 - he did have a mission and he did everything he said he was going to do. He did not stop after a few bombings, he did not say, oh well, we can't catch them all, and close a few bases. He stayed the course and is continuing a fight that will help prevent 9/11 ever happening again. And, Kerry's inability to make a decision does not make him a good leader. He wants a more sympethetic war? What is that? His 4 step plan, no this week it is 7, no I changed my mind, make it 3 ... is just an example of how he can't decide which group he wants to make happy.

Pulling out of Iraq too early will only allow the terror groups to take a strong hold again, and we will be in worse shape then ever. Bush needs our support!

SouthsideLadderMan

10-29-2004, 12:17 PM

I have Three things to say about the United Nations and none of them are good. See if you can figure them out:

1. Oil for Food
2. Sudan
3. Somalia.

Have a nice day.

U.S. OUT OF THE U.N.!

kep.ctc

10-29-2004, 01:00 PM

Well said Ladderman, look at Australia's or Englands crime rate after guns were taken from the law abiding citizens.

The United Nations is a farce OIL FOR FOOD RUSSIA & FRANCE in bed with IRAQ.

Criminals will never register a gun in their life. But the democrats will give them crack/cocaine to vote in this election. I guess we can see the hippie movement dope smoking Clinton lovers.

I NEVER HAD SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH THAT WOMAN. Well after the aspirin factory I was not totally truthful with the American people. It was just a B____J___ and everyone does it at least once.

To Sen. Kerry: Are you for the war in Iraq today? Well I do not know? Does anyone know what he stands for? He would have pussied out and put his tail between his legs like Gore would have had he been elected!!!!

BUSH 4 MORE YEARS!!!!!!!

SHkneedeepIT

10-29-2004, 01:32 PM

FyrFytrFarmer

10-29-2004, 02:15 PM

The president's decisions DO effect everyone. Just ask anybody in the military today.

Normally, the President's decisions are made and, thanks to the political expressway, take many years to implement. I don't think 4 years as the lPresidentis long enough. A President needs time to mold his ideas into reality.

Go Bush

SHkneedeepIT

10-29-2004, 03:09 PM

The President is a puppet. He does as he is told. Granted, he is the only one with the authority to null and void what congress does. But he also does not have the unilaterial authority to make WHATEVER decision he wants....unless it's one on one within the oval office...lmao ;-)

Hopewell

10-29-2004, 04:11 PM

Naive question here....

Can anyone sit here and give me a run down of the singular decisions any President in the past 20 years has made that have helped or hurt you directly? And when I say singular, I mean decisions made in a vacuum without input from anyone else; i.e. Congress

See, mom mother is a retired school teacher and used to run Student Government in Prince George's County Public Schools years ago. I am politicked out. But the one thing I realized through all of this, the PRESIDENT is not the person we need to be concerned with, it is the people at the lower levels....the people we have direct access to who can carry our thoughts, concerns and issues forward to the appropriate assemblies. If anyone thinks the President of the United States TRULY has an affect on the outcome of what happens in your day to day lives, I'd suggest rethinking their position.

So, I ask once again, what singular decisions has a President made that effect you? MY choice, I don't vote. I elect to talk to my local congressman and congresswoman. One can carry a larger voice if they have the backing of the people WITH the power...just my humble opinion...probably worthless to most of you...lolI see where you are going with this, and you are right to a certain degree. The constitution was forged so that no one person or entity would have all the power. Checks and balances, etc. You are also correct that most of what is mandated though legislation and affects our day to day lives (roads, schools, health care, social security, taxes, etc.) comes from congress. Our congressmen and women, and our senators are generally receptive to legitimate issues and concerns their constituents have, and are not difficult to interact with.

However, the President does have great authority in particular with appointees to his cabinet and to the judiciary. The Patriot Act is a frightening and devious piece of lawyering, crafted by Attorney General John Ashcroft and his staff, and which undermines the constitution. And for those who don't realize it, Ashcroft's views of the world are fundamentalist, secular, isolationist, non-progressive, and authoritarian. This is a man who won't allow a semi-nude statue of Lady Justice behind him (it has to be draped now), because he considers it obscene. He is also one of the appointees of which Bush is most proud.

With Chief Justice Rehnquist of the Supreme Court now ailing with cancer, Bush is likely to have the opportunity to appoint not only another justice to the bench, but the next Chief Justice. The Supreme Court is already teetering toward ultra-conservatism. Just as too liberal a bench would allow citizens to run amok, too conservative of one allows the government to. Too conservative a bench would allow challenges to questionable legalities like the Patriot Act to go unopposed, which then gives too much power to the President, and strips citizens of rights. You know, rights like "privacy in our homes and papers," and "right to keep and bear arms," and "speedy trial," and "due process of law," etc... Do you follow where I'm going with this?

Since we have no formal declaration of war from congress, there is no congressional oversight. The President has unilateral privilege here to use the military as he desires. Nobody to keep him in check. It could be his own private police force. Some in the world would argue that it already is.

This is why this presidential election is so important. Truly the fate of our freedoms, our nation, and the world, rests on it's outcome.

Emtmom

10-29-2004, 04:46 PM

IT'S A JOKE FOLKS, HAVE SOME FUN AND DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER!

http://www.imgag.com/product/full/ap/3067907/graphic1.swf

Chia6004

10-29-2004, 05:01 PM

The statement that if a democrat was in office he would have wimped out an not done anything after 9/11 is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, and I work for the state, I guess in some peoples minds its better to attack ANYONE and worry about cosquences later. I think the pres confused Iraq with Iran, not that hard to confuse those two really.

Why have the Saudis been so protected during this entire time, the findings that were censored by the adminstration relating to Saudi Arabi, his oppostion to the 9/11 commision, Saudi Nationals and members of the Bin Laden family being flown out of the nation in the days after 9/11 (when all civil and private flights had been grounded) There is a reason for all of this and that reason is the Saudis have put more then 400 million dollars into the Bush family over the years.

This president knows nothing about foreign affairs, he didn't even know that there are two basic types of Mullims in Iraq, but when you live most of your life in a druken stupor you miss some of the facts. His statement of "they hate us for are freedom" was the most ignorant thing I have every heard come out of Washington. Could it be that they may hate us becasue we treat them like crap prop up and support these govts like Hussien and Saudi Arabia that keep there people living in horrible conditons.

One last thing this president goes completly against basic Republican thought. I thought that the Republicans were against expanding Govt, you know increasing the private industry while cutting back on Govt jobs, but to be fair Bush has tried to do this with Fed Firefighters. His tax cuts have done nothing for the economy, once again Bush playing to his supporters, why would any normal person cut income while you are increasing spending??? Wars aren't cheap we have fought two in the last three years and the pres continued tax cuts even after his first ones fell flat on there face. You do not stimulate the economy by giving tax cuts, I unerstand the idea behind it but if people weren't spening their money before if you give them an extra $200 they still won't spend it all you did was take money away from vital areas like the miltary.

eyeofthestorm

10-29-2004, 05:03 PM

If America is going to stand for something, let it be righteousness, liberty, and freedom.
Aren't there two more democracies in the world now? Did liberty not overcome tyranny in Afghanistan and in Iraq? Aren't the people in both nations now free?

You don't dance in the snake pit and get upset when you get bitten. You get the hell out, and let the snakes be
Ok, so by your logic, after we won in World War II we should have completely ignored Europe and Japan. We should have just picked up and left after dropping two atomic bombs and not help them rebuild themselves. Basically you are saying after we put out a fire we should just leave...we shouldn't check for extension or do any overhaul. Imagine what the reputation of America would be if we simply went into nations, completely destroyed them and then picked up and left. Imagine how loathed Americans would be then.

We are no longer fighting a war on terror
Wow, I’m not even going to gratify that with a response.

his wealthy and sheltered upbringing
Obviously you haven't read John Kerry’s biography.

Finally,
his misguidance and misinterpretation of faith.
Who are you to tell a person that their faith in God is misguided or misinterpreted?

Kerry/Edwards- Help is on the way.....Yea right, it’s already here BUSH/CHENEY 04

Chia6004

10-29-2004, 05:25 PM

"Aren't there two more democracies in the world now? Did liberty not overcome tyranny in Afghanistan and in Iraq? Aren't the people in both nations now free?"

In Afghanistan outside of Kabul most of that nation is run by war lords and and drug money. Iraq have you been watching the same news as the rest of us? A poll was just taking in that nation most of their populace would rather live under a Theocracy then a Democracy, Democracy has to be earned, Something given has no value.

"Ok, so by your logic, after we won in World War II we should have completely ignored Europe and Japan. We should have just picked up and left after dropping two atomic bombs and not help them rebuild themselves. Basically you are saying after we put out a fire we should just leave...we shouldn't check for extension or do any overhaul. Imagine what the reputation of America would be if we simply went into nations, completely destroyed them and then picked up and left. Imagine how loathed Americans would be then."

Kinda like what we have done to Central America, South America and some nations in Asia? As for the first part I don't know how that applies to this conversation but ok.

"Wow, I’m not even going to gratify that with a response."

Really was the 9/11 commision report not clear enough for you? No WMD's in Iraq and no ties to Al Qaida but we are still in Iraq fighting a war that did not need to be fought losing young Americans every day. 100,000 Iraqis dead since the start of the war BTW.

"Obviously you haven't read John Kerry’s biography."

How does that change the fact that Bush lived a shelterd life and has never had to take responsibilty for his mistakes?

"Who are you to tell a person that their faith in God is misguided or misinterpreted?"

When someone says that they feel they are having a Conversation with god thats dillusional borderline psychosis.

I would like to see Bush win if only for one Reason So he would have to clean up his own mess for once in his life.

Kerry Edwards 04 a Stronger America.

eyeofthestorm

10-29-2004, 05:27 PM

Saudi Nationals and members of the Bin Laden family being flown out of the nation in the days after 9/11 (when all civil and private flights had been grounded)
Shows how much you know about foreign affairs. They have diplomatic immunity. The US has to let these people out of the nation, at the request of the Saudi Government. There was nothing anyone could do about it.

His tax cuts have done nothing for the economy, once again Bush playing to his supporters, why would any normal person cut income while you are increasing spending???
Keyesian economics, you know, the system that FDR used to get the US out of the depression. You know, FDR, the most important democrat in US history. This allows more money to be injected into the economy, stimulating it for the short term.

The statement that if a democrat was in office he would have wimped out an not done anything after 9/11 is the dumbest thing I have ever heard
What did Bill Clinton do after the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania? What did he do after the first WTC attack? Nothing. He fired a couple of cruise missiles. What did Jimmy Carter do when the hostages in Iran were taken? He negotiated and had a failed rescue attempt. Didn't make any other attempts after the first one failed, he was scared about the whole negative press thing. Only after he was defeated were they finally released.

I guess in some peoples minds its better to attack ANYONE and worry about cosquences later.
The whole purpose of attacking was that the consequences of not attacking would have been much worse. Even John Kerry agrees on that one, considering that the most important security issue is the proliferation of WMD's.

Hopewell

10-29-2004, 05:32 PM

Aren't there two more democracies in the world now? Did liberty not overcome tyranny in Afghanistan and in Iraq? Aren't the people in both nations now free?No, there are now two puppet regimes that have not yet had their own citizenry determine their fate and choose their own leadership... yet. To be fair.

However, in regards to Afghanistan, I think we had solid proof and the right to use military force to eliminate a regime that harbored terrorism, and that we are more secure for disassembling that framework. The actions in Afghanistan are justifiable for our defense and security.

But we were not there to spread freedom and liberty, and we are certainly not doing that in Iraq.

Ok, so by your logic, after we won in World War II we should have completely ignored Europe and Japan. We should have just picked up and left after dropping two atomic bombs and not help them rebuild themselves. Basically you are saying after we put out a fire we should just leave...we shouldn't check for extension or do any overhaul. Imagine what the reputation of America would be if we simply went into nations, completely destroyed them and then picked up and left. Imagine how loathed Americans would be then. World War II and Iraq are apples and oranges. We fought gainst Nazi Germany and The Empire of Japan because not only did they have murderous and oppresive idealogies, but the ability to force their will militarily on the world. WWII was a war that had to be fought to disallow those forces from prevailing. We had to destroy them, and we had a moral obligation to rebuild them.

I don't believe we should have ever been in Iraq in the first place. Well, yeah, now we kinda have to rebuild there, cuz look at the mess we made. We have created new seeds of hatred, fundamentalism, and terror based on the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq. We have done nothing there to advance our security. Quite the opposite. We've jeopardized it. On Bush's watch.

Wow, I’m not even going to gratify that with a response. Please see above. If we were still actively deploying the resources used in Iraq toward seeking out and destroying Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, shoring up homeland defenses, and improving our intelligence community, then I might say we were fighting a war on terror. But we're not.

Obviously you haven't read John Kerry’s biography.Fair enough. Kerry also came from a background of privilege and wealth. But regardless of the dispute over his war record, Kerry did serve in combat, and fought courageously. He could have used family and money connections to avoid service, but he didn't. Unlike Bush who was able to use family connections to avoid combat by being in the Texas Air National Guard.

Finally,

Who are you to tell a person that their faith in God is misguided or misinterpreted?You are absolutely right. It is not my place to tell anyone how to feel about their faith in God. Nor is it George Bush's.

I must say that how George Bush sees God's will, and how I see it are two very different things. I don't want him imposing his beliefs on me either, which is what he is doing and, unfortunately has the power to do it (i.e. see John Ashcroft).

Kerry/Edwards- Help is on the way

Chia6004

10-29-2004, 05:46 PM

"Shows how much you know about foreign affairs. They have diplomatic immunity. The US has to let these people out of the nation, at the request of the Saudi Government. There was nothing anyone could do about it."

Some yes like diplomats and his or her staff, but not every memeber of the Bin Laden Family and every Prominent Saudi National.

"Keyesian economics, you know, the system that FDR used to get the US out of the depression. You know, FDR, the most important democrat in US history. This allows more money to be injected into the economy, stimulating it for the short term."

I know of Keyesian Economic principles yes but obviously you are having an issue with basic Econ, The economy works on supply and demand right? If the demand isn't there it doesn't matter how much money an Individual has he or she won't use it. Even Keyesian economics is at the will of basic econ rules. FDR got us out of the depression by creating Fedral jobs not giving money away, actually WW2 got us out of the depression not any economic policy. Heres a link. http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/KeynesianEconomics.html

"What did Bill Clinton do after the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania? What did he do after the first WTC attack? Nothing. He fired a couple of cruise missiles. What did Jimmy Carter do when the hostages in Iran were taken? He negotiated and had a failed rescue attempt. Didn't make any other attempts after the first one failed, he was scared about the whole negative press thing. Only after he was defeated were they finally released."

I grant you that point. Clinton was still active in foreign affairs IE Bosnia, Iraq, etc. This pres is tanding by and allowing North Korea and Iran to become Nuclear powers he focused on the wrong target and we are our children will pay the price at some point in the future.

"The whole purpose of attacking was that the consequences of not attacking would have been much worse. Even John Kerry agrees on that one, considering that the most important security issue is the proliferation of WMD's"

Yes not doing anything about terror is not possible we all understand that. However you need to pick the right target if WMD's are the most important issue facing are National Security shouldn't we go after those states that are actively pursuing them?

I hope you are not taking this personally because I'm not. This is a stimulating conversation. Its nice to talk to someone who is well Informed on the subject and has there own strong opinions on the subject.

eyeofthestorm

10-29-2004, 06:03 PM

When someone says that they feel they are having a Conversation with god that’s delusional borderline psychosis.
So you're saying that the billions of people throughout the world who pray (a conversation with God) are all psychotic...

No WMD's in Iraq and no ties to Al Qaida but we are still in Iraq fighting a war that did not need to be fought losing young Americans every day.
The whole point of going into Iraq was that at the time the highest sources of intelligence said he had them and that there were ties to Al Qaida. Democrats supported it. And you can't use the argument that there are no WMD's in Iraq as justification for saying that the war in Iraq was a mistake and that the President mislead the nation. Ad Hominem Tu Quoque

As for the first part I don't know how that applies to this conversation but ok.
The argument was that we can't simply pull out of Iraq. It's a comparison; you know that thing they taught you how to do in elementary school.

Really was the 9/11 commission report not clear enough for you So you are saying we are no longer fighting a war on terror? We are not constantly trying to thwart terrorist attacks and prevent them from acquiring WMD's? My brother (who is in the Special Forces) is getting woken up in the middle of the night and being sent all over the world for no reason?

A poll was just taking in that nation most of their populace would rather live under a Theocracy then a Democracy They took a poll in Iraq????? You mean they have the FREEDOM AND LIBERTY TO TAKE POLLS NOW???? WOW!!!!!!! I WONDER HOW THAT HAPPENED?

World War II and Iraq are apples and oranges. We fought against Nazi Germany and The Empire of Japan because not only did they have murderous and oppressive ideologies, but the ability to force their will militarily on the world. My argument there isn't whether or not we should have fought; it is that we can't simply pull out.

Some yes like diplomats and his or her staff, but not every memeber of the Bin Laden Family and every Prominent Saudi National In any conflict when there are Americans in the area we go in and get our people, diplomat or not. The Saudis were doing the same thing.

Hopewell

10-29-2004, 06:05 PM

Good ideas there Chia6004, and I like that you're smart and stick up for what you believe in. The whole Saudi connection is real, but it does seem a bit conspiracy theorist, a la Michael Moore.

eyeofthestorm: Nice reference to John Maynard Keynes. I never thought too many people on here would know much about Macro Economics!

eyeofthestorm

10-29-2004, 06:13 PM

He could have used family and money connections to avoid service, but he didn't. Unlike Bush who was able to use family connections to avoid combat by being in the Texas Air National Guard. I can't stand that statement. Kerrys draft number was 39. There was no way in hell that he wasn't going to be drafted. But, rather then be an enlisted soldier he decided to be an officer instead, spending one of his tours of duty on a ship in the pacific. When he did finally decide to go and fight in country he wanted to get as many medals asap, because that means that you get to go home. As far as Bush being a draft doger, his number was 327. My dads number was 95 in the year Kerry was drafted. My dad didn't have to go to Vietnam. Is my dad a draft doger? I don't think so. Bush could have sat the war out, but instead he decided to join the national guard and if joining the National Guard is a cop out or whatever, tell that to the 10 guys at my firehouse who are in it.

eyeofthestorm

10-29-2004, 06:14 PM

Yea im not gonna lie, i dont know that much about it, all i know is my professor said thats what Bush was using.

eyeofthestorm

10-29-2004, 06:17 PM

Oh and Chia, i dont take it personally. I go to GW, this is all me and my friends do.

Chia6004

10-29-2004, 06:35 PM

"So you're saying that the billions of people throughout the world who pray (a conversation with God) are all psychotic..."

No I'm not saying that people who pray are psychotic, I'm saying people that think they are having a conversation with God, like what we are doing now, you know commune, are psycotic.

"The whole point of going into Iraq was that at the time the highest sources of intelligence said he had them and that there were ties to Al Qaida. Democrats supported it. And you can't use the argument that there are no WMD's in Iraq as justification for saying that the war in Iraq was a mistake and that the President mislead the nation. Ad Hominem Tu Quoque"

Really so if I someone lies to you and tells you something that is false there point is still valid? There were no WMD's In Iraq that was the justification of the War, you remeber to stop the proliferation of WMD, sense there are no WMD's In Iraq the Justifaction for the War was wrong. Don't bring out the fallacy argument, first you didn't use it right, I never made any attack on the presidents character, If I would have said hes just a repoublican so anything he says are does is wrong thats ad hominem you have to draw a link between his character and his actions for a hominem to apply I didn't so that point is mute.

"The argument was that we can't simply pull out of Iraq. It's a comparison; you know that thing they taught you how to do in elementary school."

I never said we should pull out, the orginal point was the people getting murdered in Iraq by the terrorists are being murderedby them but its also partly the fault of our govt for putting them there in the first place, you know a needless war and all.

"So you are saying we are no longer fighting a war on terror? We are not constantly trying to thwart terrorist attacks and prevent them from acquiring WMD's? My brother (who is in the Special Forces) is getting woken up in the middle of the night and being sent all over the world for no reason?"

No I was refering to Iraq that War has nothing to do with Terror and everything to do with politcs, In case you don't recall, the 9/11 commision report stated there were no ties to Al Qaida and no WMD's in Iraq. That was the comparison I was making, you know that thing they taught you how to do in elementary school.

"They took a poll in Iraq????? You mean they have the FREEDOM AND LIBERTY TO TAKE POLLS NOW???? WOW!!!!!!! I WONDER HOW THAT HAPPENED?"

You missed the point they don't WANT IT. They would rather live under an oppresive regime then be exposed to are way of life.

I'am also stunned that there are people on here that have an understanding of Economics, Foreign Policy and know some of the Argumental Fallacys even if they use them wrong.

jkelly2

10-29-2004, 07:04 PM

How could President Bush not act on intelligence received from the CIA and NSA, the most well-funded and equiped intelligence agencies in the world? That would be "psychotic." Would you not make a decision to dismantle the threat based on what your own intelligence gathers? That would be asinine.

But how Calvinistic the pessimists are!

No Fear

10-29-2004, 07:16 PM

Boy this is getting interesting now. Christ I think you guys are doing more mud slinging then Bush and Kerry themselves. ONce again, and no one as answered this, what has John Kerry done for the fire service and what are his plans. One thing I bet is the IAFF president will get a cabinet spot if Kerry wins. Plus Chia did you send your tax break money back to Bush. I didn't, I enjoyed it with my family, and I'm not rich. But this is America and I guess we will see who the rightful winner will be (Ralph Nader ...sike) on Tuesday and then we all can be brothers and sisters against and debate something else.

Hopewell

10-29-2004, 07:22 PM

I can't stand that statement. Kerrys draft number was 39. There was no way in hell that he wasn't going to be drafted. But, rather then be an enlisted soldier he decided to be an officer instead, spending one of his tours of duty on a ship in the pacific. When he did finally decide to go and fight in country he wanted to get as many medals asap, because that means that you get to go home. As far as Bush being a draft doger, his number was 327. My dads number was 95 in the year Kerry was drafted. My dad didn't have to go to Vietnam. Is my dad a draft doger? I don't think so. Bush could have sat the war out, but instead he decided to join the national guard and if joining the National Guard is a cop out or whatever, tell that to the 10 guys at my firehouse who are in it.I never said that George Bush was a draft dodger. Now if he had R.O.T.C. (Run Off To Canada), maybe I would have, but no... he served honorably, if not with notable distinction, in the Air National Guard.

My point relates to what Bush felt he was obligated to do. Both men felt that the proper thing to do at the time was military service. Both could have found any number of ways to avoid it altogether, but neither did. Kerry chose to enter a branch of service and a billet at a time of conflict knowing that he would likely be put in harm's way. I'm sure he could have done other things in the Navy to avoid hazardous duty, but that's not the path he chose. Saying that Kerry was only in combat to try to collect medals to get home early is an insult to any serviceman who has been decorated. Medals don't come cheap, they don't come easy, and they are the last thing any person in battle is thinking about or wants.

Now, at the same time, instead of joining the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines, be it active or reserves, George Bush entered a branch of the service where he most likely was to face little threat of combat from anyone but Mexico. :rolleyes:

Draft dodger? No. Responsibility dodger? Hard to say... You make the call. I know what I think.

eyeofthestorm

10-29-2004, 07:28 PM

There were no WMD's In Iraq that was the justification of the War, you remeber to stop the proliferation of WMD, sense there are no WMD's In Iraq the Justifaction for the War was wrong. My point in that is that at the time, the most credible intelligence sources were saying that there were. Saddam even said he had them. Now people are saying we were wrong for going into Iraq because we haven't found any weapons and that the president mislead the nation. We had a credible threat and took action. You can't fault a leader for taking action when at the time it was deemed necessary by using information that we now know. Its like a cheif sending in a team to do a search because a mother said her kid was in the house. While doing the search the team dies. After the fire is out the mother fimds out that the kid was over a neighbors house. You cant hold the cheif at fault for sending the team in when the most credible sources said that the kid was in there. As far as the fallacy..fuck i got a question wrong on my midterm.

eyeofthestorm

10-29-2004, 07:37 PM

Interesting.....

Why Democrats Should Vote for Bush
By Tammy Bruce
October 29, 2004

As a Democrat and a pro-choice feminist, it’s time for me to explain why I support the president, and why other thoughtful Democrats should join me in doing so. I can’t tell you how many e-mails I’ve received from other Democrats either condemning me for not toeing the line, while others write who are genuinely curious, after all the hate-mongering and demonizing of Republicans and the president specifically, they hope I can ease their fears about what their inclination to vote for the president means about them.

The simple answer? It means you’re a confident liberal, a thoughtful person who realizes that game of party loyalty takes a back seat to the safety of your family and this nation. It also means you take the slogans of “choice” and “radical individualism”seriously. Isn’t it ironic that there’s nothing more radically individual these days than a liberal who doesn’t conform?

For me, Authentic Feminism is rooted in making it possible for people to make the choices that best suit them. If you have recognized the weakness of John Kerry, and know in your heart a vote for the president is the right thing to do, join me and do it! It can be done with a clear conscience as you embrace the radical individual inside you that attracted you to liberal causes in the first place.

Because some things simply transcend party lines, when in front of that Early Voting touch screen, I stood there as an American first, and voted for George W. Bush. This nation, our lives, and the lives our children require nothing less.

I explain to detractors and supporters alike that President Bush is the man who will keep this nation safest. The president and I hold dramatically divergent views on a number of social issues of importance to me, and yet for the 3,000 people who died on September 11th, abortion rights and same-sex civil unions mean absolutely nothing to them now. These issues, while important to me and ones on which I will continue to speak out about, are luxuries in the face of a world war where the enemy is a stateless savage who hunts children and cuts off people’s heads.

We have a responsibility to leave this nation as great as it is to the next generation. We all know, and must reflect on, the fact that the joy we have in our lives today is due to the sacrifice of hundreds of thousands of other Americans who died fighting for this country. Those soldiers did not die because they were promised 72 virgins in the afterlife, they fought not for themselves—they died in the most noble of American causes— so future generations—us—could live in freedom.

I do not take that action for granted, and I have learned that generosity of spirit and commitment to freedom is inherent in each of us, and a duty we cannot shirk.

Those of you with children have a more immediate concern, which is the literal safety of the light of your life. That little face looks up at you as you tuck her in, and sleeps gently knowing that Mommy and Daddy are there. That same face stares at you in the morning, with a heart full of hope, limited only by her imagination because you confront, for her, the harsh realities of every day. And these days it’s not just about making a living, it’s about the Beslan school massacre, it’s a new al-Qaida tape threatening Americans at home, it’s about war and mad savages who have specifically targeted children.

I voted for President Bush because having a Pacifist Internationalist in the White House will only embolden those who salivate at the sight of our blood. Having a man in the White House who stands for nothing will only excite Islamic Fascists who revel in torture and the cutting off of heads. I do not want a man in the White House who is so cold, when asked by a New York Times reporter how September 11th changed him, answers “It didn’t change me much at all.”

While I know a Bush presidency makes my work as a feminist more complicated and demanding, I will love and be grateful for every day I have the luxury of working on those issues. And frankly, it’s not necessarily a bad thing to have a president who encourages social activism on issues. Liberals make the mistake of thinking a Democrat president is indeed Daddy, who can be trusted in all things. Apathy soon follows that false comfort.

Bill Clinton showed us the decline of the Democratic Party into a gang spouting slogans to make women, gays and blacks feel Daddy was in the house, to our grave regret. What did we get? A sexual compulsive who put Monica Lewinsky on her knees instead of cutting bin Laden off at his.

Yes, there were plenty of Democrats, feminists, gays and blacks in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and on those fateful flights. I’m sure you would agree that in their last moments their literal lives were more important to them than party affiliation.

I want a president who will be strongest making sure tomorrow comes, that this nation not just survives, but emerges from this war like the others we have fought, in a world that has been transformed for the better. I want a president who understands this is war, not a “nuisance.”

I know George Bush has made many in the world angry, and frankly, I am dismayed at the hard feelings. A recent poll of Europeans revealed their general belief that Bush has made the world a more dangerous place.

Upon hearing that, I remind myself of the time President Reagan increased arms production and installed more Pershing Missiles in Europe as we faced down the Soviet Union. President Reagan grappled with European polls, anger and resentment, all of which evaporated when the Soviet regime collapsed.

Yes, they hated Reagan, but he plodded on, never swayed by those polls or made doubtful by others’ hatred. His resolve freed Europe from the shadow of a bear which had no mercy and the blood of tens of millions on its paws. As a man of faith with a love of this country, Reagan stayed the course, and did what he knew had to be done. He was a leader, and I’m proud to say, one that only America could deliver.

Today, President Bush faces the same polls, the same anger, and the same resentment as he, too, recognizes and engages a rabid enemy of civilization, Islamo-Fascists. Europeans felt Reagan was leading them to Armageddon, as they now insist Bush is doing. We can’t know what it’s like for Europeans to see such a young nation doing so many things, but one thing Europe will find, again, is that while we may be wild, young and even cowboys on occasion, we have a pretty good track record of making the world a safer and better place.

With George W. Bush at the helm, this time will be no different.

I voted for President Bush because he has freed 50 million people, 25 million of which are women and girls. The feminist establishment, in a shameful exhibit of their hypocrisy, has ignored that fact. As a feminist, I thank the president with my vote, in solidarity with the millions of Afghan and Iraqi women who now, courtesy of the president and our astounding military, finally have hope, liberty and freedom.

Like all of our presidents, George W. Bush is quintessentially an American. He’s a Cowboy. A Texan. He will never be mistaken for a Frenchman. He’s a Yalie. He’s a man of faith, a husband and father. He’s a man who has fought with and overcome addiction. He’s a man of strength and character.

And while he is also wrong on some issues, if I have to work harder on social issues, I want it to be against a man whom I can admire, who I know, despite our disagreements, honors me in his work to keep this nation free and great.

For those of you who are Democrats and liberals—and I know through my years as a leader in left wing causes, including feminist and gay activism—we all have gone through a sort of conditioning that makes dissent or difference a frightening prospect. Republicans and conservatives have been decidedly demonized in your circle—perhaps by your own friends and family.

Let me tell you this--voting for the President does not change who you are or what you stand for. I stand for the classical liberal concepts of personal liberty and individualism, and have spent a great deal of my adult life working for those causes. I have found that “Choice” and “Individualism” are only slogans if you never act on them. Sometimes being yourself means straying from the expected, standing apart from your crowd.

November 2nd is a good a day to be a Democrat who’s an American first.

Emtmom

10-29-2004, 07:41 PM

ONce again, and no one as answered this, what has John Kerry done for the fire service and what are his plans. .
This enough for you No Fear????
John Kerry is a cosponsor of the IAFF's SAFER (staffing for adequate fire and response) legislation, S., 544, and cosponsored the original legislation, S. 1617, in 2001. (http://thomas.loc.gov)

In a speech to the IAFF's Legislative Conference in March, Senator Kerry proposed a "First Defenders Initiative" program to put 100,000 new fire fighters on the job; this program will also supply the training and equipment they need.
(speech to IAFF Legislative Conference, 03/18/03)

John Kerry and Collective Bargaining
"…collective bargaining is an American right, it is a human right,"
(Berkshire Eagle, 6/23/03)

John Kerry has cosponsored the IAFF's collective bargaining legislation for three sessions of Congress (http://thomas.loc.gov).

Watch the Real Audio clip of John Kerry discussing Collective Barganing

John Kerry and the FIRE Act
John Kerry cosponsored and supported the original freestanding FIRE Act legislation, S. 1941, in the 106th Congress, which created the program to provide direct federal grants to fire departments. Further, he cosponsored the FIRE Act Amendment to the FY 2001 Defense Department Authorization (S. Amdt. 3753), which passed the Senate.

In 2003, John Kerry supported an amendment to the Budget Resolution of 2003 that would have provided more funding for fire equipment, especially equipment related to homeland security (S. Amdt. 299 to S. Con. Res. 23)

Overtime
"To take away overtime pay is to destroy many individuals ability to be able to make ends meet, to pay the mortgage, send the kids to school, buy the medicine for themselves and be able to live a decent life. And it is to dumb down, push down, squeeze down the quality of life in America," he said. (Minnesota Public Radio, Aug. 5, 2003)

John Kerry strongly opposes new overtime regulations and is sponsoring a petition on his website to oppose the new regulations proposed by the Administration. (www.johnkerry.com)

Federal Presumptive Disability
John Kerry has supported and is the sponsor of the Federal Presumptive Disability legislation, S. 530, which would provide parity to federal fire fighters with their municipal counterparts in classifying certain cancers and heart ailments as job related ailments. (www.iaff.org)

This came from a simple search of yahoo, typed in search box: John Kerry Fire Departments!

iaff4me

10-29-2004, 09:10 PM

Chia6004 and EMTMOM thank you. No Fear please read EMTMOM last post on this subject. She hit some of Kerrys' plan for this nations fire service. She did not mention The Father Mychal Judge Fund which would add 100,000 more ff's (well that might be what she was referring to). She did not mention the added protections on our benefits examples - deferred comp., workers comp., TB exposures, added Cancer presumption, etc.
Now FOUR years under Bush. Stood on 9/12 at the WTC said I will help you guys out. Within a week or so maybe three cut all the funding to the Fire Act. Thank God for the Congress and Senate. Fire Act came up again later down the road Bush cut the funding again. Congress and the Senate approved it and added MORE money. Opposes the SAFER ACT because "it will create more union members." (Remember the DeLay letter) Opposes collective bargaing for firefighters. Bush has tried time and again to strip it from Federal ff's. Deferred comp plans aka 457 plans, similiar to a 401k plan, Bush tried to take those away "cost the localities too much money." Bush is weakening the workers comp laws. Read your newspapers too many examples to name. Overtime was stripped from us thank god for the IAFF that has finally allowed Captains to get overtime. But wait locality attorneys are already saying if Bush is reelected Captains, Lieutenants, and those in supervisiory positions WILL have their OT taken away.
No post since two days ago has said what good Bush has done for the fire service, BECAUSE there are none. I go to church, own numerous guns, hunt, oppose abortion and gay rights, but my PAYCHECK allows me and my family to survive. VOTE YOUR PAYCHECK, LOBBY YOUR HOBBY. Kerry for pres.

Hopewell

10-29-2004, 09:11 PM

Interesting.....
Why Democrats Should Vote for Bush by Tammy Bruce.
November 2nd is a good a day to be a Democrat who’s an American first.I am always an American first, and have crossed party lines many times to vote for the candidate I liked best or felt was most qualified.

I think I've already explained why I'm voting for Kerry and not Bush. I don't agree with Bush's philosophy or actions as the leader of this nation. I think he is destructive, short sighted, and unable to admit when he is wrong, if he even realizes that he is.

I don't think Bush is a bad man. But, to view his record at face value, he doesn't represent the ideals that most of us have come to embrace as Americans. Liberty, freedom, democracy. He thinks he does... but he doesn't. And that makes him dangerous.

iaff4me

10-29-2004, 09:24 PM

Hopewell, Again I apologize for leaving your name out of my prior post. Also for those reading this hung up on the abortion issue. Republican supreme court, president, senate, and house and they STILL could not do anything about it. VOTE your PAYCHECK, LOBBY your hobby. IAFF. All hail the next president John F. Kerry.

hog

10-29-2004, 09:27 PM

kerry = traitor....he lies .....changes his mind every other time and is a good bullshitter

Chia6004

10-29-2004, 10:07 PM

People change their mind Hog thats part of growing up things that you used to stand by you realise you were wrong about. Kerry is a traitor eh whatever Bush is a moron. I might stand behind the War in Iraq if his daughters enlist though. Bush does nothing but perpetuate the sterotype that all Americans are inbreed stupid Rednecks who know nothing of the world. People say don't change horses mid stream I say change horses are drown.

I call a moron because prior to 9/11 he was on vacation 42% of the time, ignoring memos from the intelligence agency saying that Bin Laden was plaining attacks inside the US and going AWOL from the texas air national guard. Bush has done more to harm this nation then help it and I for one can't wait until Nov 3rd when this jackass is finally gone.

As for being a good bullshiter Bush is the master at Bullshiting, Remeber there was this ateroid called Iraq and if we didn't do something we would be destroyed, then it became well he used WMD's in the past, so has Japan, China, Russia etc do we invade all of them, then it was hes inhumane, Well if thats the case we would be in the Sudan right now. At last it went to well he tortures hes own people an we would never do such a thing oh wait nevermind.

iaff4me

10-29-2004, 10:37 PM

Hog this is for you. "we will never win the war on terror." A qoute from G.W. Bush. Remember sitting in the Oval Office. Now his phrase is " we will win the war on terror." Any campaign stop he will say this. Traitor? or Flip flopper? same to me. Kerry voted the second time against the funding for IRAQ because of the tax cuts. You shouldn't cut taxex and then go to "war". You don't bugdet your household like this do you? Another question was W. invovled on his coke habit during the time Kerry was firing bullets? Lobby your hobby, VOTE your paycheck

hog

10-29-2004, 10:47 PM

i like my guns ......i don`t think gays should marry........health care for everyone would be nice but please tell me how it will be paid for......Kerry will take your guns away.......let gays marry and make us pay for everyones healthcare....plus the prick was meeting with the North Vietnamese durin war........traitor hell yes....you want a freaking guy like that running our military?????????????????

iaff4me

10-29-2004, 10:58 PM

iaff4me

10-29-2004, 11:03 PM

To all, two days since my first post WHAT has Bush done for the fire service. Nothing. Please prove me wrong.

Chia6004

10-29-2004, 11:07 PM

Good for you hog I happy you like your guns, I'am for Gay rights I think they should be allowed to marry, National healthcare is more important then the right to bear arms IMO, yes he was meeting the north Vietnamese during the war on the field of battle, i would much rather have an indvidual who actually has experienced war then some sheltered pansy rushing are nation into war.

Emtmom

10-29-2004, 11:13 PM

Weapons of Mass Destruction

Announcing the invasion of Iraq on March 19, 2003, Mr. Bush said, “Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.”

Two months into the war, on May 29, 2003, Mr. Bush said weapons of mass destruction had been found.

“We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories,” Mr. Bush told Polish television. “For those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them."

On Sept. 9, 2004, in Pennsylvania, Mr. Bush said: “I recognize we didn't find the stockpiles [of weapons] we all thought were there.”

Nation Building and the War in Iraq

During the 2000 campaign, George W. Bush argued against nation building and foreign military entanglements. In the second presidential debate, he said: "I'm not so sure the role of the United States is to go around the world and say, 'This is the way it's got to be.'"

The United States is currently involved in nation building in Iraq on a scale unseen since the years immediately following World War II.

During the 2000 election, Mr. Bush called for U.S. troops to be withdrawn from the NATO peacekeeping mission in the Balkans. His administration now cites such missions as an example of how America must "stay the course."

Iraq and the Sept. 11 Attacks

In a press conference in September 2002, six months before the invasion of Iraq, President Bush said, “you can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror... they're both equally as bad, and equally as evil, and equally as destructive.”

In September of 2004, Mr. Bush said: “We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with September 11th." Though he added that “there's no question that Saddam Hussein had al Qaeda ties,” the statement seemingly belied earlier assertions that Saddam and al Qaeda were “equally bad.”

The Sept. 11 commission found there was no evidence Saddam was linked to the 9/11 attacks, which killed nearly 3,000 people.

The Sept. 11 Commission

President Bush initially opposed the creation of an independent commission to investigate the Sept. 11 attacks. In May 2002, he said, “Since it deals with such sensitive information, in my judgment, it's best for the ongoing war against terror that the investigation be done in the intelligence committee.”

Bowing to pressure from victims' families, Mr. Bush reversed his position. The following September, he backed an independent investigation.

Free Trade

During the 2000 presidential election, Mr. Bush championed free trade. Then, eyeing campaign concerns that allowed him to win West Virginia, he imposed 30 percent tariffs on foreign steel products from Europe and other nations in March 2002.

Twenty-one months later, Mr. Bush changed his mind and rescinded the steel tariffs. Choosing to stand on social issues instead of tariffs in steel country – Ohio, Pennsylvania and West Virginia – the Bush campaign decided it could afford to upset the steel industry rather than further estrange old alliances.

Homeland Security Department

President Bush initially opposed creating a new Department of Homeland Security. He wanted Tom Ridge, now the secretary of Homeland Security, to remain an adviser.

Mr. Bush reversed himself and backed the largest expansion of the federal government since the creation of the Defense Department in 1949.

Same-Sex Marriage

During the 2000 campaign, Mr. Bush said he was against federal intervention regarding the issue of same-sex marriage. In an interview with CNN's Larry King, he said, states "can do what they want to do" on the issue. Vice President Cheney took the same stance.

Four year later, this past February, Mr. Bush announced his support for an amendment to the Constitution that defines marriage as being exclusively between men and women. The amendment would forbid states from doing "what they want to do" on same-sex marriage.

Citing recent decisions by “activist judges” in states like Massachusetts, Mr. Bush defended his reversal. Critics point out that well before the 2000 presidential race, a judge in Hawaii ruled in December 1996 that there was no compelling reason for withholding marriage from same-sex couples.

Winning the War on Terror

"I don't think you can win it," Mr. Bush said of the war on terror in August. In an interview on NBC's "Today" show, he said, “I think you can create conditions so that . . . those who use terror as a tool are less acceptable in parts of the world."

Before the month closed, Mr. Bush reversed himself at the American Legion national convention in Nashville. He said: "We meet today in a time of war for our country, a war we did not start yet one that we will win." He later added, “we are winning, and we will win."

Campaign Finance Reform

President Bush was initially against the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform bill. He opposed any soft-money limits on individuals to national parties.

But Mr. Bush later signed McCain-Feingold into law. The law, named for Senate sponsors John McCain, R-Ariz., and Russell Feingold, D-Wis., barred both national parties from collecting soft money from individuals.

During the 2000 race, Mr. Bush showed support for the so-called 527 groups’ right to air advertising.

In March 2000, he told CBS News' "Face the Nation," "There have been ads, independent expenditures, that are saying bad things about me. I don't particularly care when they do, but that's what freedom of speech is all about.”

In late August of this year, in an effort to distance himself from controversial anti-Kerry ads by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, Mr. Bush reversed his position, announcing he would join McCain in legal action to stop these "shadowy" organizations.

Though it would close the Swift Boat group's funding, court action would also silence well-funded liberal 527 organizations like MoveOn.org and America Coming Together.

Gas Prices

Mr. Bush was critical of Al Gore in the 2000 campaign for being part of “the administration that's been in charge” while the “price of gasoline has gone steadily upward.” In December 1999, in the first Republican primary debate, Mr. Bush said President Clinton “must jawbone OPEC members to lower prices.”

As gas topped a record level of $50 a barrel this week, Mr. Bush has shown no propensity to personally pressure, or “jawbone,” Mideast oil producers to increase output.

A spokesman for the president reportedly said in March that Mr. Bush will not personally lobby oil cartel leaders to change their minds.

By David Paul Kuhn
©MMIV, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Chia6004

10-30-2004, 01:10 AM

All of you were just owned great job emtmom.

kep.ctc

10-30-2004, 01:20 AM

is chia michael moore under cover????? Sure is spouting a lot of talking points???

Chia6004

10-30-2004, 01:22 AM

^^LOL, You blew my cover damn I have twinkie if you forget this conversation. But I love that guy hes my hero. :)

No Fear

10-30-2004, 06:51 AM

It is pretty well known who everyone voting for and once again that is what great about this country. I can see by the replies of this thread that people are going out of their way to make sure they get their hopeful recognized.

IAff I glad to see someone loyal to their union and abide by their wishes. I not going as far as emtmom on Kerry and the fire service, which I must admit was an excellent research and presentation however reading firehouse and seeing that the federal gov't is in their 19th round on grant money for firehouses, and Bush is their boss and he's hasn't cut the money yet, so I think he has done a small portion for the fire service. Maybe not much under some standards but he did do something. As far as the New York guys, I am kinda of torn what the real scoop is. When I visited those station houses the impression I got from the firefighters and Lt's was that they were for Bush. I am not making it up and I heard with my own to ears.

As far as the military service who cares, that was thirty years ago , but people are still bitching about it. I am a army vet. and served my country proudly. I not making an issue out of this. Both men were in the armed forces. Its time to kill this issue. How many of you have served?

Pat. Act... does this really effect us. If you aired your dirty laundry, the odor bound to get someone attention and they would want to investigate why, but if your laundry clean what is there to fear? I am not worry about it. When I went to the airport the feds checked inside my luggage twice. Was I offended, was I pissed, hell NO. Their just trying to keep us safe, so whats the problem about that.

Healthcare I must admit I think Kerry has the upper edge on this. So as you can see I'm not as closed minded as some may seem.

The war in Iraq, well I spoke to lots of soldiers going over and been over only to return. They informed me that for example 10 million people want them there, glad they kick Saddam out of power, however theres a million of those little assholes who dont want us there. I am sure this would get a neg. response but if I had my way, I move those 10 million away from there and nuke the other assholes and them help the goodguys build their country back.

The war on terror I got to go with Bush on that one. And before you beat me up that just my opinion. I have a hard time if the President of the United States wants to kiss France's ass, especially when they were conducting business with Iraq. Just my opinion once again.

The gay thing, to each is own,there nothing I'm going to do to change it.

Sure there is things that need to be change, however we have it alot better then some other people from foreign lands do. You can't argue that.

Well I like to wish each one of you the best on Tuesday, its been fun debating, however I glad it is almost over.

If Kerry wins can he keep is wife in the background , I have the feeling that she is a real rich bitch.

Hog, get those rednecks out to vote.

To all take care and be safe

hog

10-30-2004, 09:53 AM

You really should control your anger. Did you serve in that war, where you even alive during that war? At least Kerry fired some bullets in anger where was Bush? Nobody knows? Such a silly hang up that you have discuss something that is supposed to be about the fire service That is what this sight is about. Are you even registered to vote. Kerry for president. IAFF.
why would i have to serve in that war.......we are voting for someone who will be commander in chief of our armed forces......there is no way i want someone like Kerry who was a traitor to this country leading our troops....no way in hell ... i have voted everytime since i was 18....don`t get angry with me because my opinion isn`t the same as yours........that is the democratic way........BUSH all the way....

Emtmom

10-30-2004, 12:31 PM

As far as the military service who cares, that was thirty years ago , but people are still bitching about it. I am a army vet. and served my country proudly. I not making an issue out of this. Both men were in the armed forces. Its time to kill this issue. How many of you have served?

The war in Iraq, well I spoke to lots of soldiers going over and been over only to return. They informed me that for example 10 million people want them there, glad they kick Saddam out of power, however theres a million of those little assholes who dont want us there. I am sure this would get a neg. response but if I had my way, I move those 10 million away from there and nuke the other assholes and them help the goodguys build their country back.

I agree with you on the Military records and the distortion of them. We don't need to rehash the 70's, this is 30 years later. People change! Several Viet Nam vets came back and not only protested the war, but spoke to the senate committee! My brother was in Viet Nam, believe me I've heard enough about it, don't care to hear more. I do think it's about damn time that people finally see the soldiers that were there deserve credit for what they did!
Same as who gives a shit that Bush used to drink......there is such a thing as a recovering alcoholic! (I know, I've been dry for 13 years!)
As far as Iraq, my best friends son was there, twice already. He said he wishes they would start telling people some of the good they are accomplishing there. Do I think we belong there....HELL NO! Do I support our troops....HELL YES....and I pray for them everyday! Good idea on the moving out the ones who want a new govt. there, and taking out the rest, I have a friend who is in the Air Force said they have bombs they can do that with and leave the country livable for those who want thier country back. Would even leave them thier oils fields so they would have an income.
GET OUT AND VOTE! that's what matters!

hog

10-30-2004, 01:26 PM

Emtmom

10-30-2004, 01:35 PM

Military issues are the most important thing right now......what he did 30 years ago is the same crap he will do now.......what if we get attack what will Kerry do......wait i have to ask the UN if we can defend ourselves.....what a crock......you vote him in you seal our fateWell, then maybe you should complain about Bush missing his time in the military.......OH NO that's right he's your candidate so it's OK! Or do you not believe the mans record that he never showed up for training he was supposed to be there for? That he NEVER served the last of his time, never showed at the base he was supposed to be at when he moved, he signed orders telling him to where to go when he moved and he NEVER showed....but that's ok right.....
It was 30 years ago.....People change!

hog

10-30-2004, 01:44 PM

look nancy get your facts right..........Kerry congragated with the enemy that is all i have to say other than ....if we need to defend the USA we have to ask the UN.....SCREW THE UN

Chia6004

10-30-2004, 04:58 PM

Hog please if your going to try and use big words use them right. So Kerry came together in a big crowd with the North Vietnamese huh, sounds like a battle to me.

No we don't need the UN's approval to defend ourselves but the war in Iraq is not and never was about self preservation, I never bought the BS that Iraq had wmd's in the first place, please stop spouting rhetoric Kerry served with honor during that war while your president was drunk and high somewhere in Texas, as he went awol during the last two years of his service, Cheyney got multiple waivers on service because and I quote "I had better things to do".

In war it is always the young and the powerless that are sent off to do the fighting, sent off by leaders who did not have the courage to go themselves, that sums up are current adminstration very well, Bush is in way over his head, he wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for family connections and he needs to leave.

As for the patriot act, do you really know what that allows the govt to do No Fear? The govt can now legally intercept communications, when I say intercept communications I mean Email, phone convesations, text messages, etc, monitor internet activity of any person, hold a "suspected terrorist w/out charge, the DOJ now has the power to enter any house w/out a warrant, ue process is going out the window. This is just the start of us losing the rest of our freedoms. Read hopewells sig read mine, the sad thing is most americans are to stupid, scared and lazy to care that we are losing basic rights and they deserve not to have them. I only hope that it doesn't happen in my life time.

No Fear

10-30-2004, 05:35 PM

Chia, I realize who your voting for. I have given my opinion, and we will see come Tuesday who has prevailed. Either way I am not leaving the country. As far as the pat.act what are you afraid of. I honestly believe if this what it takes to protect us, then so be it. Then can review my e-mail, look into my bank account, do whatever. I have nothing to fear ( just like no fear huh). Only thing their going to find is an all American true to the right white and blue guy. Like I said before when I gotten my luggage at the airport the TSA look in it, twice. I didn't get mad, I didn't raise hell with them.Unfortunately this has to be done. I saw the Pentagon burning that day, I went to Ground Zero to at least pay my respects. And if you must know the fuckin assholes that ran that plane in the Pentagon were staying when I am employed at. As far as being stupid, lazy or crazy, thats kind of resentful. I again proudly served in the arm forces to protect what me and you currently enjoy today, have you? I want my family to be safe, be free, to enjoy what I have enjoy in this life time. Is that so fuckin bad for thinking the best for my family. I would hope not, but then I wonder. Bottom line if your dirty laundry stinks maybe they should look at you, if not, like they say in the islands, No Worry Man. And yes I do know what the pat. act is and does.

Chia6004

10-30-2004, 06:46 PM

I didn't mean to sound as if I was attacking you No Fear but the truth is that most americans are stupid and lazy, I doubt most people could point out Iraq on a map, when 48% of Americans think Hussein was behind 9/11 that shows the level of intellect that are populace has. As for being lazy we are, people don't research what there talking about are what we are going to vote for, The Republicans define this election as Kerry is weak and Bush is right and most people are buying it an thats how they are voting look at the responses on this board and you will see proof of that.

One day we are going to wake up and this will no longer be the same nation that you and me were born into, its alreay heading that way, free spech is dead, freedom of assembly is dead soon basic libertys like privacy will be gone thats what the patriot act lays the ground work for. To quote my signature "Those who desire safety over liberty deserve neither."Benjamin Franklin.

Hopewell

10-30-2004, 06:54 PM

Hog please if your going to try and use big words use them right. So Kerry came together in a big crowd with the North Vietnamese huh, sounds like a battle to me.Hog,
Chia is right. "Congregation" (proper spellling) is an assembly, usually of people, into a large crowd. Did you mean conspiring? Doesn't matter because Kerry didn't do that either.

I still have yet to see documentation of Senator Kerry actively aiding and abetting the enemy in a time of war. Perhaps you're just unable to see that a man who participated first hand in conflict might be most qualified to see its' futility and sought to end it. I recommend that you not assume that everything that is said on right-wing radio is Gospel.

As for the patriot act, do you really know what that allows the govt to do No Fear? The govt can now legally intercept communications, when I say intercept communications I mean Email, phone convesations, text messages, etc, monitor internet activity of any person, hold a "suspected terrorist w/out charge, the DOJ now has the power to enter any house w/out a warrant, ue process is going out the window. This is just the start of us losing the rest of our freedoms. Read hopewells sig read mine, the sad thing is most americans are to stupid, scared and lazy to care that we are losing basic rights and they deserve not to have them. I only hope that it doesn't happen in my life time.Chia:
I always liked your signature too.

Nofear:
I can see that we're not going to change your mind and that's okay. You seem to at least make an informed and educated opinion, even if we disagree.

In relation to the Pat. Act, my fear is not that my luggage is searched, or my e-mail read, or house entered, per se. I'm not a terrorist. But when you open that door, and surrender your most precious and hard fought for freedoms, even a little at a time, you make it easier for the next time when the government wants to take you away for being a gun owner, or looking at questionable material on the internet, or reading the wrong books, or going to the wrong church or synagogue, or supporting the wrong political candidate, and they won't have to give you a trial, or an attorney, or any recourse, because you have given those up.

Think it can't happen? It already has in the world this century. And it can happen again if we are all not very, very careful. Sure I fear terrorists. I fear oppression more.

hog

10-30-2004, 07:06 PM

here we go again i am so tired of people who pick out misspelled words....why does it make you feel smarter?....you know what the hell i meant....why do you people have to make an issue out of it....whatever makes you feel good.......vote for whomever you freaking want to.....do what ever you freaking want to who freaking cares....but i will say this even that no good whore Jane Fonda appologized......what about John Kerry...i know you saw his pic with her

Hopewell

10-30-2004, 07:11 PM

...i know you saw his pic with herThat was a hoax. Look it up.

Chia6004

10-30-2004, 07:27 PM

Being in the same picture with a person of questionable character makes you their equal? Guilty by association?

No Fear

10-30-2004, 07:33 PM

Chia and Hope I'm not going to bash you for your choice and I hope you don't feel that way. I admire people who stand up for what they believe in. I agree we disagree and hopefully we can put this behind us. Everyone made good arguements and just like Brooks and Dunn "Thats what its all about". And Hog I like in your own special way what you believe in on this subject. Just this subject, the others you got some work to do. The real problem I really truly got is Kerry's wife, what a bitch and you guys can't argue that, she has proven her point time and time again. Good Luck , Be Safe, See Ya on the big one

regs1

10-30-2004, 08:01 PM

Hog:

Everyone deserves to have an opinion, even you, to use events and politics that occurred 30 years ago, and then say they will influence decisions today, well it does have some validity. In general I hope that people will look at what happen in Vietnam, look at political policy, military policy, and find the faults that existed. As a nation we have to learn from our mistakes, not repeat them. In Iraq, it seem that we are starting to make the same mistake as before, letting politics drive military doctrine, I waiting for the “win the heart and minds doctrine to reappear” I can go on for pages on this subject but will cut it here.

On this thought Hog you wrote “military issues are the most important”, I disagree with you, I feel that economic issues are more important. Here I feel old GB jr has not identified with the working class, those who work in manufacturing, and entry job levels, and yes some of these issue are affecting Vol. FD membership, how do you get members when two people per household is working just to pay the mortgage.

Hog - do you really believe that any country will be dumb enough to attack the US, Kerry if elected as Pres, he will have to defend the US self interest. The UN has no say in this, in Iraq, yes we made mistakes, history will probably prove that. But no nation will directly attack the US. The United States basically destroyed Iraq, and this was based upon faulty information.

I not going to endorse Kerry, I many issues with him, However his Vietnam record is not one of them.

jkelly2

10-30-2004, 08:58 PM

Chia6004 please stop spouting rhetoric Kerry served with honor during that war while your president was drunk and high somewhere in Texas, as he went awol during the last two years of his service, Cheyney got multiple waivers on service because and I quote "I had better things to do".

Likewise.

Chia6004

10-30-2004, 09:32 PM

Yes your right Bush was never an alcholic and never went awol from the national guard. He never skipped out on physicals and was never grounde dyour right I made all that up, pulled it right out of Michael Moores a$$.

kep.ctc

10-31-2004, 12:33 AM

NO you are Michael Moores ass

I am just kidding!!! Chia

A message to everyone if you do not vote I feel you have no right to complain!! So vote

Chia6004

10-31-2004, 12:45 AM

LOL, I love Michael Moore, If I ever run into him I will give him sexual favors thats how much I like him. :p But seriously ctc is right if you vote I have no issues with you even if we disagree. Its when people whine about their leaders and don't vote that I get mad. If Bush does win I will accept the american peoples choice even If I don't agree with it, will all of you Bush supporters do the same? Anyways my shift starts tommorow I will be gone until wed. Take care everyone.

eyeofthestorm

10-31-2004, 03:26 AM

Well, then maybe you should complain about Bush missing his time in the military. 327 vs. 39. Dont say Bush missed his time in the military. There wasn't a chance in hell he was going to get drafted. Kerry couldn't avoid it, so he went officer rather then enlisted. He spent his first tour on a ship in the Pacific and after supposedly fighting was out in three months during his second. I personally find it pitiful when people who you serve with say you are a piece of shit. Its pretty bad. Don't call Bush a war avoider. My father and uncle had numbers lower then Bush and they didn't get drafted. They are not war dodgers. Despite his high number he VOLUNTEERED to join the guard. And if people think thats coping out, talk to the Guardsmen and women who are fighting now.

Emtmom

10-31-2004, 11:25 AM

327 vs. 39. Dont say Bush missed his time in the military. There wasn't a chance in hell he was going to get drafted. Kerry couldn't avoid it, so he went officer rather then enlisted. He spent his first tour on a ship in the Pacific and after supposedly fighting was out in three months during his second. I personally find it pitiful when people who you serve with say you are a piece of shit. Its pretty bad. Don't call Bush a war avoider. My father and uncle had numbers lower then Bush and they didn't get drafted. They are not war dodgers. Despite his high number he VOLUNTEERED to join the guard. And if people think thats coping out, talk to the Guardsmen and women who are fighting now. I never said being in the guard was coping out! BUT, the fact that he missed drills, a psyhical (which got him grounded) and never showed up at his new post for his last year of service, is a cop out on his part!
Those in the guard ARE doing thier share!

No Fear

10-31-2004, 01:38 PM

Emtmom

10-31-2004, 03:35 PM

I thought that Dan Rathers escapade answered all these questions, The man was in the guard just like Kerry was in the Navy. And if he did miss out on some drills (which I doubt) is a helluva better then sleeping, I mean talking to the enemy, thanks VS for that research.
The information of him missing drills and some of his time, came from Bush's own records. This information was released by the white house, after the FOI lawsuit that was filed when they "lost" his records.

No Fear

10-31-2004, 03:39 PM

Still better then having a conversation with the enemy, no one denying that either

hog

10-31-2004, 05:01 PM

The information of him missing drills and some of his time, came from Bush's own records. This information was released by the white house, after the FOI lawsuit that was filed when they "lost" his records.
i have yet to see any facts about that..........i am not saying that the Vietnam War was right or wrong.........but we were at war ....our GIs were dieing........and Kerry was meeting with them?.......there is no way on God`s green earth that he has a right to lead our military......period

Hopewell

10-31-2004, 06:57 PM

i have yet to see any facts about that..........i am not saying that the Vietnam War was right or wrong.........but we were at war .....and Kerry was meeting with them?Man oh man, I hate to admit this, and you can thank VS for doing your homework, but apparently you were correct.

Senator Kerry did indeed travel to Paris in 1970 as a private citizen and was involved in some way, (how is unclear), with discussions with delegations from North Vietnam about ending the war.

PrideOfPigTown

10-31-2004, 09:05 PM

http://www.swiftvets.com/

Two new short videos are now on the site, they are a must see.

Emtmom

10-31-2004, 09:08 PM

i have yet to see any facts about that.......
Jan. 19, 1968: Bush completes Air Force officer qualifications test in New Haven, Conn., while attending Yale University.

May 27, 1968: Walter B. Staudt, commander of the Texas National Guard, interviews Bush and recommends he be accepted for pilot training. Bush's application for enlistment in the Guard is approved.

June 1968: Bush receives bachelor of arts degree from Yale.

July 12, 1968: A three-member Federal Recognition Examining Board reports Bush is qualified for promotion to 2nd Lieutenant in the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron.

July 14, 1968: Bush attends basic military training in San Antonio.

Aug. 25, 1968: Bush completes basic military training.

Nov. 26, 1968-Dec. 2, 1969: Bush attends undergraduate pilot training with the 3559th Student Squadron, Moody Air Force Base, Ga. He is trained to fly standard Air Force aircraft, including the T-31, T-37, and T-39.

Dec. 29, 1969-Jan. 20, 1970: Bush is trainee with 111th Squadron, Ellington Air Force Base, near Houston.

Jan. 11, 1970: Bush is assigned flying duty as a pilot of F-102 fighter interceptors, 111th Squadron at Ellington.

Aug. 24, 1970: Three-member board recommends 2nd Lt. Bush for promotion to first lieutenant. Bush later receives the promotion.

1971: Bush participates in drills and alerts at Ellington, begins work for Houston-based agricultural company.

May 1972: Bush asks for and receives permission to continue his duties in Alabama while he works as political director on the Senate campaign of Winton M. Blount, a friend of his father. He loses flight credentials after missing physical exam.

Sept. 6, 1972: Bush's request for a three-month transfer to 187th TAC Recon Group, Montgomery, Ala., is approved so he can work as political director for a Senate campaign.

November 1972: Bush returns to his unit at Ellington in Texas.

May-July 1973: Bush participates in non-flying drills at Ellington; works at inner-city poverty program earlier in the year.

Sept. 18, 1973: Bush receives permission to transfer to reserve status and is placed on inactive guard duty about six months before six-year commitment ends; attends Harvard Business School in the fall.

Oct. 1, 1973: Bush receives honorable discharge.

Sources: National Guard Bureau records as compiled by The Associated Press.

There you go Hog......

No Fear

11-02-2004, 12:16 AM

Emtmom

11-02-2004, 12:30 AM

Since mom has done an excellent job researching Bush's military career, can you please tell me the order how many times Kerry met with the enemy overseas. Anyway I got one thing to say God intended Dick and Bush, GO BUSHThe only interest I have left in this is to go to the polls tomorrow! and for the last time for a long time you will hear this:
I'm so and so and I approved this message! ROFL

No Fear

11-02-2004, 01:14 AM

Didn't think you would do that research, but your right tomorrow I will cast a vote for a better America and I wont have to hear this and that, and it will be business as usual.

God intended Dick and Bush, unless you just vote for Bush which also is a good thing

kep.ctc

11-02-2004, 02:50 AM

Kerry-in-Edwards or Edwards-N-Kerry

NAH Dick and Bush Go together better LOL

If you choose not to vote do not come to me crying because your man got beat!!!

eyeofthestorm

11-02-2004, 03:51 PM

Get Out And Rock The Vote People!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No Fear

11-03-2004, 06:17 PM

No Worries Man , No worries, Its a great day to be alive when you know that President Bush is on our side, it a fine time in the neighborhoo when we won't hear Kerry go Booo=hoooo-hooo

Chia6004

11-03-2004, 06:43 PM

Now that this mess is behind us I will try my best to support the presidents choices, I will at the very least keep an open mind. At least my choice for pres will be able to run in 08. :)

No Fear

11-03-2004, 06:50 PM

Don't worry Chia you can vote for Rudy or McCain in 08.

Be Safe

Emtmom

11-03-2004, 08:04 PM

Don't worry Chia you can vote for Rudy or McCain in 08.

Be Safe Hey Rudy called me last weekend.....don't know what he had to say, I was rude and hung up. LOL Thank goodness this is over!

iaff4me

11-03-2004, 11:19 PM

Well this episode is over. What can we bitch about now? Oh wait we have four more years to find that out.

No Fear

11-04-2004, 12:22 AM

Its hard to say what we can bitch about now, or maybe we can have some lay back bull shitting session. All in All it was fun to debate with you guys on this issue. Also it was pretty neat to see everyone stick by their man and defend them no matter what.

Maybe we can talk about how the Yankees choked, Michael Moore is an asshole, what went wrong in the election, (we all know what went right LOL) or something.

Chia , your not hoping for Hillary are you?

To All take care and be safe

eyeofthestorm

11-04-2004, 06:12 PM

Is it just me or is the democratic party beginning to resemble the torries?

Chia6004

11-04-2004, 07:39 PM

"Chia , your not hoping for Hillary are you?"

Either her are Clark either would do. I know that Hillary wouldn't win because alot of people out there wouldn't vote for her just because shes a woman but she would win several States, CA,NY Michigan. I like her and I have always respected her. She is the most beautiful woman in the US IMO.

Hopewell

11-04-2004, 07:49 PM

I'm too bummed to even post witty replies. Congratulations to G.W. Bush and all who voted.

Too early to think about next time. Hillary? Don't know about that one. Not saying no, but I'd like to see what else we have to offer, first.

SouthsideLadderMan

11-05-2004, 11:59 AM

She is the most beautiful woman in the US IMO.

You gotta be kidding. You must like Cankles....she is a disgusting, repugnant Communist Swine who needs to go back to the Arkansas Trailer Park she emerged from. She would never win a presidential election in the United States. Hell, she had to move to NY to even win a Senate Race.

RUN, Hilary, RUN...right back into the Dumpster.

Think Logically

11-05-2004, 03:28 PM

I hope the Democrats can do better than that, besides wasn't she president already? OK, maybe she did let her husband make some decisions. Oh well.

GREAT JOB BUSH!!!

I must admit that I have gained some respect for Senator Kerry, instead of striking up a long legal battle he admitted defeat. Even though his V.P. candidate Edwards insisted on pressing legal disputes.

So remember in 4 years........Larry the Cable Guy instead of Hillary, if Edwards does run expect law suits. The victory was obvious this year; however, he still wanted to find a dispute. Just another idiotic lawyer.

Chia6004

11-05-2004, 04:06 PM

"You gotta be kidding. You must like Cankles....she is a disgusting, repugnant Communist Swine who needs to go back to the Arkansas Trailer Park she emerged from"

LOL I'll give you the first sentence was damn funny. But yes I do, I don't think that she is the most physically atractive woman in the world, If I did I would've said hot, but she is attractive. When I say beautiful I mean she has everything, power, money, class, intellect, courage and strength. Just because some guys prefer women to have an IQ that matches their bra size doesn't mean everyone does.

I have a question for all of those who hate Hillary, Why exactly do you hate her. I have my ideas but I would very much like to hear from someone who hates her.

Loo for life

11-07-2004, 10:23 AM

BCFD in Philly

11-07-2004, 03:48 PM

Being a woman has nothing to do with why they wouldn't vote for her that is just a liberal excuse she is just a poor choice regardless!

Here are a few reasons for you to choke on:

FOSTER SUICIDE....

Elitist..

Bilked poor people in Land deal in Ark....

Did real well in commodities trading...

Took precious items which belong to us from the White House upon departure and had to return them..

Rose Law Firm Missing records found in a White House Closet after being rooted through...

Snob to the White House Servants...

Bitch to Secret Service & Fire Service Personnel protecting her...

The almost Health Care takeover....

Thinking she was elected as co-President when Bill was....

She is a carpetbagger from IL and moved to Liberal NY to get into Office...

Finally she is a fucking SHREW!!

All these w/o taking too much time out of my day.. Come on do you think that the American People would be that stupid to vote for this woman, then you are still in 2004 DENILE
(that lil river in Egypt) :rolleyes:

And the list goes on.....

The Special Division of the Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, which oversees the Office of the Independent Counsel (OIC), released yesterday the final investigative report on Hillary Clinton's role in the firing of the White House Travel Office staff. Independent Counsel (IC) Robert Ray concluded that Mrs. Clinton (that would be "Hillary!" for those familiar with her campaign bumper stickers) gave "factually inaccurate" sworn testimony when she tried to conceal her role in the scandal.

Let's recall a few facts. Billy Dale, the longtime career supervisor of the Travel Office, and his staff were not only fired abruptly when the Clintonoids took control of the White House, but several of them, including Dale, were thereafter audited by the IRS. Moreover, Dale was prosecuted by the always-diligent attorney general, Janet Reno, on trumped up charges of financial wrongdoing, for which he was acquitted in 90 minutes by a jury of his peers.

And why was this relatively insignificant office, and these low-level worker bees, put upon by the White House and federal law enforcement? Well, the Clintons' good friend and supporter, Hollywood's Harry Thomason, was a partner in TRM, Inc. Both had an interest in securing some of the White House's air charter business, but Dale had no interest in doing business with them. Thereafter, the White House suddenly unleashed an audit of the office, followed by White House allegations of crimes. Next, the FBI was ordered to conduct a criminal investigation. The lives and careers of the Travel Office civil servants were all but destroyed.

Full citation: http://www.warroom.com/Hilary/index.htm

No Fear

11-07-2004, 06:18 PM

Thats seems pretty convincing evidence there Chia, maybe the dems should look at someone else. But if you guys want to lose again that okay to

Chia6004

11-09-2004, 01:56 AM

God I hate not knowing how to quote on these boards.

"FOSTER SUICIDE...."

If you mean assisted suicide I'am for it so that doesn't turn me off.

"Elitist.."

Who in politcs isn't? Bush pretends to be one of us but please he has never had to take responsibilty for his mistakes I still haven't heard him say that the Justification for the War In Iraq was wrong even after NO wmds were found.

"Bilked poor people in Land deal in Ark...."

I don't know enough about this issue to even comment on it.

"Took precious items which belong to us from the White House upon departure and had to return them.. "

What like coffee pots?

"She is a carpetbagger from IL and moved to Liberal NY to get into Office..."

How do you respond to the Republican who ran against Obama who doesn't live in Illionis?

SouthsideLadderMan

11-09-2004, 09:56 AM

If you mean assisted suicide I'am for it so that doesn't turn me off.

So you are saying you think it is OK that this man's suicide may not have been a suicide at the hands of the Clintons? You are advocating the Clintons ordering a hit and you think they should be able to do it more? Do you even know who Vince Foster was?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/FOSTER_COVERUP/foster.html <~~~~Educate yourself Chia

Bush pretends to be one of us but please he has never had to take responsibilty for his mistakes I still haven't heard him say that the Justification for the War In Iraq was wrong even after NO wmds were found

And Kerry never has so far, had to take responsibility for his actions against this Country in the Vietnam war. And Clinton never had to take responsibility for the whole Whitewater scandal and all the mysterious "Deaths" in the Greater Arkansas area during his terms as governor.

If you don't think removing a Murderous dictator who was a danger to the Region and the World from power is a justification for war (not to mention the numerous UN resolutions that were never enforced) than you have no business discussing American Politics.

How do you respond to the Republican who ran against Obama who doesn't live in Illionis?

We don't need to respond to that, the VOTERS IN ILLINOIS RESPONDED BY NOT ELECTING HIM! Case CLOSED! (Too bad the empty-heads in NY couldn't grasp that concept with Cankles Clinton.)

eyeofthestorm

11-09-2004, 06:29 PM

the Justification for the War In Iraq was wrong even after NO wmds were found The fact that we havent found WMDs means absolutly nothing. The whole reason for going in was to get them and eliminate the threat. Saddam said he had them, intelligence said he had them so we took out a threat.

hog

11-09-2004, 10:13 PM

The fact that we havent found WMDs means absolutly nothing. The whole reason for going in was to get them and eliminate the threat. Saddam said he had them, intelligence said he had them so we took out a threat.
good quote

No Fear

11-10-2004, 12:10 AM

Damn, I thought the election was over, guess not. We'll my two cents then.

1: Vince Foster - I believe there a little something there , but I don't know all the facts to make a wise remark or decision, however it is very suspicious.

2: WMD - Well they were there one time. They didn't let the U.N. Inspectors full freedom to go about their jobs and basically restricted their movements. Wonder Why?

Don't you think that Saddam might have move them in the brink of war to prove Bush wrong and I told you so. I would if I was Saddam

Do you really think Colin Powell who I have the upmost respect for made that shit up? I don't think so.

Taking stuff from the White house, I believe is still theft, anyway you look at it.

Why would Bush have to apologize for going to war with Iraq. A decision was made and Clinton really didn't have the balls to do it earlier, leaving Saddam to continue to play in the sand. Did Clinton apologize to the American people for all his fuck ups, ie. Somalia, Whitewater, going to Russia ( A communists country then) instead of Vietnam, and the # 1 thing I did not have sexual relations with that women.

I am really not going to bash Kerry anymore other then he met witht he enemy and of all places, France. However I do respect him alot for not putting the American people through all the bullshit that Gore did. He accepted that he lost in this election and conceded it. That took alot , especially since all the bull shit going around.

As far as Hillary, why would she leave her home state for another, could it be because of her involvement in Whitewater, that she couldn't win at home and had to move some place where she could get elected. What has she done in the senate, can anybody tell me?

Chia , I would hope that you would come up with someone better that that .

Chia6004

11-10-2004, 01:35 AM

Foster suicide I miss read that quote my bad, as No Fear said I don't know enough of that situation to comment on it.

"Why would Bush have to apologize for going to war with Iraq."
Not apologize just admit he fucked up the intelligence was flawed yes, but he should have taken more time to review all the information before rushing this nation to war and costing the lives of 1100+ American Soldiers not to mention 100k Iraqis.

"And Kerry never has so far, had to take responsibility for his actions against this Country in the Vietnam war. And Clinton never had to take responsibility for the whole Whitewater scandal and all the mysterious "Deaths" in the Greater Arkansas area during his terms as governor."

Once again show me proof of his actions, Do you really want to talk about deaths occuring in a state during a certain governors term?

"If you don't think removing a Murderous dictator who was a danger to the Region and the World from power is a justification for war (not to mention the numerous UN resolutions that were never enforced) than you have no business discussing American Politics."

Sadam was a bad man yes, but the world is not safer now, the people in his torture rooms are better off but not the world. But please spare me from that argument too, If that was the case we would be in Sudan right now. I won't even respond to your last sentence.

"We don't need to respond to that, the VOTERS IN ILLINOIS RESPONDED BY NOT ELECTING HIM! Case CLOSED! (Too bad the empty-heads in NY couldn't grasp that concept with Cankles Clinton.)"

So its only worng to run in a state other then your home state if you win. So I can kill someone and as long as I don't get caught its not bad?

"The fact that we havent found WMDs means absolutly nothing. The whole reason for going in was to get them and eliminate the threat. Saddam said he had them, intelligence said he had them so we took out a threat."

Once again the threat NEVER existed, NK is a bigger threat then Iraq EVER was.

"Why would Bush have to apologize for going to war with Iraq. A decision was made and Clinton really didn't have the balls to do it earlier, leaving Saddam to continue to play in the sand. Did Clinton apologize to the American people for all his fuck ups, ie. Somalia, Whitewater, going to Russia ( A communists country then) instead of Vietnam, and the # 1 thing I did not have sexual relations with that women."

Once again not apologize just admit that the Justifaction was wrong, Trace his defense of the war, It went from he has WMDs to he performs torture and we americans never torture anyone, oh wait nm, Somalia was a Fuck up I can't defend pulling are troops out during Genocide, Once again going to Russia I don't disagree with, He wasn't going to die for a politcal war I have nothing against that. Why is everyone so hung up about the Blow Job, Its not sex even if it was I still wouldn't care, I don't give a damn what anyone does in their personal life.

Truthfully, my top choices are McCain, Clark and Clinton.

SouthsideLadderMan

11-10-2004, 08:11 AM

I feel like I am debating a Store Mannequin here. Chia, do you truly believe the turds falling out of your mouth?

but he should have taken more time to review all the information before rushing this nation to war

You mean like Bill Clinton did for 8 years after the 1st WTC Bombing? How long does the UN require the US to review intelligence before we get global approval to defend this nation? F--k the UN! The United States of America has a right to defend itself against any and all threats without the approval of Kofi Annan and the puppets at the UN.

Once again show me proof of his actions, Do you really want to talk about deaths occuring in a state during a certain governors term?

Hey Chia, ever heard of the "Winter Soldier Investigation?" Do a Google on it, read the transcripts. Thats all the proof I need to know that John F. Kerry is a TRAITOR and a WAR CRIMINAL who is responsible for prolinging the suffering of our POW's during the Vietnam War. And I hope you aren't speaking of any Maryland Governor. Because I haven't heard of any Suspicious Deaths during the last terms of Hughes, Schaffer, Glendenning or Erlich...so please elaborate.

But please spare me from that argument too, If that was the case we would be in Sudan right now.

Last I heard, the Sudanese Government never threatened our Military or our Citizens with Chemical, Biological or Nuclear Weapons. I am not concerned about nations that have shown no aggression to the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Once again, and repeat after me, THE UNITED NATIONS IS A PUPPET SHOW.

So its only worng to run in a state other then your home state if you win. So I can kill someone and as long as I don't get caught its not bad?

No Comrade Chia, it's wrong period. However I think the people of Illinois showed us that they thought it was wrong by NOT VOTING THE CARPET BAGGER INTO OFFICE! So there is no need to discuss it further, it is a non-issue. And I am proud of the people of Illinois for showing the rest of the nation that OUTSIDERS DO NOT BELONG! The people of the Great Commonwealth of Virginia (Myself included) also showed James Socas the door (An outsider from the Peoples Republic of California.)

And why are you so obsessed with Killing people? Maybe you need a visit from the FBI.

Once again the threat NEVER existed, NK is a bigger threat then Iraq EVER was.

How do you know there are no plans to go into N. Korea? Do you work in the White House? Keep drinking your Tofu Soda Cali boy.

Why is everyone so hung up about the Blow Job, Its not sex even if it was I still wouldn't care, I don't give a damn what anyone does in their personal life.

The President of the United States of AMERICA (Not California) is a positionthat should emcompass high moral values and that person should espouse traditional morals. Getting an extramarital BJ from an intern while your wife (As hideous as she might be, she is still his wife) is in the other room is wrong. It goes against all Judeo-Christian principles that this Country was founded on regarding Marriage. And I don't care what Slick Willie says, a BJ is SEX. Oral Sex, keyword being S-E-X.

I really hope you don't breed and poison the rest of the world with your diluted Aliens and Black Helicopter Paranoia.

Emtmom

11-10-2004, 10:14 AM

Bush did in a speech in Pa. in Sept. of this year finally admitted that they did not find the WMD. He has prior to that admitted that the intelligence he recieved was WRONG! So we are back to, Saddam was a bad man, which only leads me to believe Bush thinks it's our job to go into any country where the dictator/leader is a brute and save the people? It is not our job to save the world, I'm not cold hearted, but it's just not our job! What do you call it when a decision like that is made, and you tell the rest of the world to go to hell? We will attack if we want to and feel the need, I'm sorry but that should make all of us nervous. What country is next? He has even admitted that he knew the intelligence reports were wrong BEFORE we attacked Iraq.

Things in Iraq are worse for the people now. There are terrorists coming in to the country in droves, why? Because BUSH didn't get enough help before making his move! So there is NO way we could ever cover every border. Do the people of Iraq want the terrorists there? HELL NO, but now they are stuck with them! If you look back at Desert Storm, Bush Sr. didn't have the backing, but he got hus butt on AirForce One and he went out and saw the leaders of other countries, and he GOT the backing and the troops we needed to help us. BUSH did NOT do his job, and now we are in Iraq for the long haul. I do know that even though I do NOT agree with why we went there, we are there, and we can NOT leave. All we can do is hope that they can some day run thier own country. Most of all PRAY FOR OUR TROOPS!

As far as Clinton, he was doing things when he was Gov. of Ark. that were bad for the state. He had damn near bankrupt thier medicare system. How do I know that? Because my parents lived there and my dad told me the stuff that was going on. As far as his affairs....that is Hillary's problem, I don't care who he's screwing. As far as the war on terrorism, he did act when he was in office. We were bombing training camps in Afghanistan long before 9/11. He was acting on intelligence reports, getting the CIA, FBI, and the Sec. of Defense together at least once a week to meet and share information. Doesn't sound to me like he was ignoring anything! Were we told all this...NO, WHY, Because you don't warn the enemy when you are going to go after them. Releasing this info to the press would have done just that! Did Bush think the intelligence was good during Clintons administration? He must have he kept on the same man for the job. He only fired him when he went public with the fact that Bush was told about the possibility of the attacks months before they happened and did nothing! Which Bush later admitted he WAS given the information!

I personally think that all the reporters should be pulled out of IRAQ, it does NOT help this effort or the troops! For thier moves to be put out in public weeks before they make them, it only hinders the operations, and puts our troops at risk! LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS! Still stands!

SouthsideLadderMan

11-10-2004, 10:35 AM

www.sorryeverybody.com

Check out this Bunch of Losers!

www.wereNOTsorry.net

The rebuttal! Hilarious!

SouthsideLadderMan

11-10-2004, 10:39 AM

As far as his affairs....that is Hillary's problem, I don't care who he's screwing.

Nobody cared who he was screwing as long as the Government Gravy Train kept rolling. If you notice, the Majority of the people who have "No Problem" with his extramarital affairs are somehow dependant on the Federal Programs he was funding, like Affirmative Action, Welfare, Art programs, Failed Education Initiatives and other Government Funded programs to make people dependant on the system and not responsible for their actions.

Try again, who the President is screwing IS of great importance to the Office of President of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA! I believe in traditional relationships, marriage, families.....so why would I want a womanizing hack to be my leader?

Chia6004

11-10-2004, 05:19 PM

You Southside you have some sever anger issues bro, I have not said one bad thing against you personally and I will try to refrain from it in this post.

"You mean like Bill Clinton did for 8 years after the 1st WTC Bombing? How long does the UN require the US to review intelligence before we get global approval to defend this nation? F--k the UN! The United States of America has a right to defend itself against any and all threats without the approval of Kofi Annan and the puppets at the UN."

Once again you put words in my mouth Im not the biggest fan of the UN, it needs to be overhauled maybe replaced with a better International body. Again how exactly was Iraq a threat if they didn't have the weapons are even the capabilites to deliver a WMD to are shores?

"Hey Chia, ever heard of the "Winter Soldier Investigation?" Do a Google on it, read the transcripts. Thats all the proof I need to know that John F. Kerry is a TRAITOR and a WAR CRIMINAL who is responsible for prolinging the suffering of our POW's during the Vietnam War."

Really, its John Kerrys fault that are goverment was following a outdated policy in Foreign affairs? You know the Domino theory. Fighting a needless war, using stupid tactics. That war taught us you will NEVER defeat Insurgents in their own nation. In case you can't draw a line between point A and B I will make it really easy for you. That war was dragged out through bad tactics for over a decade

"Last I heard, the Sudanese Government never threatened our Military or our Citizens with Chemical, Biological or Nuclear Weapons. I am not concerned about nations that have shown no aggression to the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Once again, and repeat after me, THE UNITED NATIONS IS A PUPPET SHOW."

"If you don't think removing a Murderous dictator who was a danger to the Region and the World from power is a justification for war (not to mention the numerous UN resolutions that were never enforced) than you have no business discussing American Politics."

Make up your mind either you are for are against Military Intervention in a nation with a corrupt regime. At one point you use the Humanitrian argument to say that we should have been there I call you on it and you change your argument. And if you think that we have no business going into Sudan I say that you sir are not allowed to discuss foreign affairs EVER again.

"The President of the United States of AMERICA (Not California) is a positionthat should emcompass high moral values and that person should espouse traditional morals. Getting an extramarital BJ from an intern while your wife (As hideous as she might be, she is still his wife) is in the other room is wrong. It goes against all Judeo-Christian principles that this Country was founded on regarding Marriage. And I don't care what Slick Willie says, a BJ is SEX. Oral Sex, keyword being S-E-X."

As for traditonal values you mean like 17th century style burning witches owning humans as property etc. Oral Sex is SODOMY. Heres the definition of Sodomy:1. Anal Copulation of one male with another 2. Anal are Oral Copulation with a member of the opposite sex or any copulation with a Animal. Sodomy is not sexual Intercourse no matter how you may try and spin it. Lets stay away from the marriage debate that will only start another huge argument.

"If you notice, the Majority of the people who have "No Problem" with his extramarital affairs are somehow dependant on the Federal Programs he was funding, like Affirmative Action, Welfare, Art programs, Failed Education Initiatives and other Government Funded programs to make people dependant on the system and not responsible for their actions."

Yes because that so describes us, Im a FF who works part time on a ambulance and still finds time to go to school, so please how about you try again. As for your last statement I can respect that however I take issue with a moron who has NEVER had to take responsibilty for his actions being my leader, Bush hasa horrid Economic policy, Foreign policy and domestic policy, IE Invading nations that aren't a threat, trying to legislate discrimnation into the Constitution, screwing up are enviroment, passing the Faith based Initave into law after it never passed the senate, The healthy forest pact the list goes on and on.

As for you attacking California, It must really suck to be so hateful of a place BETTER then yours. Southern California has more Economic Power then your state and several others combined, we have the fifth largest Economy in the world and a tenth of Americas Popultion. You know why are state is so populated? It comes from people in other states going fuck this Im out of here, But the reason other states hate us is the same reason the rest of the world hates america we are better, we have more rights more freedom and it drives you crazy.

California has always been different from the first days of our creation, we were the first state to ban Slavery in our Constitution, In case you need a history lesson, California became a State just before the Civil War The whole free state Slave state arguments of that time, The south wanted us to be a slave state because alot of out state lies under the dividing line, We solved the issue for them by making slavery illegal in our state from that moment on we have ALWAYS done things different then the rest of the nation and we have ALWAYS been right, Why do you think alot of our laws are passed in other states and eventually become Fed law?

I have nothing against you personally I would like to recommend anger managment classes to you however.

firestrike

11-10-2004, 10:49 PM

Here's to ya john, and all the rest of you liberal freaks................I thought hippies died out in 1973?

No Fear

11-11-2004, 01:18 AM

Just in case you guys and lady may have forgotten the election is over. Bush won, Kerry did the right thing and conceded it. And like I have said before I respect Senator Kerry for not putting this great country through all the bullshit. But it appears that some of you still continued to cry. Kerry not crying, why are you? Yes, I am a Bush man, but if Kerry would have won I might have not like it, but I would have congratulated all the ones who stood by their candidate and got over it.. Its a done deal, get over it. There is nothing you can do but wait four more years.

As far as Clinton , he's gone to.

You bring up Bush and Iraq, it is apparent that all of you have your own opinion and in your eyes, your right and they are wrong. This is not going to change even if they found wmds. There will be still bitchin going on about it and I have come to the conclusion no matter what is said someone is going to say something about how fuck up it is. Mom I truly respect your opinion, however why did Clinton let up on the terrorists after the first wtc incident. The right intention, however he also let them slip away and thus we had wtc # 2 which killed so many people. Do I blame Clinton , do I blame Bush, hell no. No one knew what was going to happen those days and no one could have stopped them. But if you want to place blame look at Clinton and Somalia, the troops were begging for more help only to fall on death ears. Ask the rangers who gallantly fought and lost their lives there. Watch blackhawk down if you can't get the message.

And Chia now your trying to bring in what state is better then the other. I admit I live in a fucked up state, bottom line. However California is pretty fucked up to. Look at the the most recent court decisions out there ie, One nation under God, In God we trust. Man you guys couldn't even get OJ convicted and the way it looks Scott Peterson probably going to walk to. Remember, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Clinton and oral or sex, or whatever you want to call it. Chia I don't need a defintion or what oral sex is. I don't care if he got a BJ or not. Hell what man would complain, however when he got caught don't look me in the eye via camera and lie. If he would have said yep, I got one and I'm sorry for being weak and got it I could have accepted that, instead of nope I didn't have sex relations with that woman and he didn't know what a blow job was. Come on now, I not stupid and he tried to make the American people look stupid by his off the wall comments on this subject.

Bottom line its over, come up with something better to bitch about instead of Bush, Kerry, and the Clintons. But I will say this that I got some info from some buddies that had to guard Hilliary, She's a real bitch

Take care Be safe

Chia6004

11-11-2004, 03:48 AM

To No Fear thats not true If they ever find WMD's in Iraq I will accept the fact that the Justification for the war was correct.

As far as States I'am obviously biased, but Cali is one of those places that you either love are hate, We are more open more accepting of peoples differences thats why we have more homosexuals in this state and more homosexual towns, IE Palm Springs, San Diego, San Fran, Palm desert, the coves etc, do we have are issues no doubt everyone does, But I would be willing to bet we have less issues then any other state at least the 30 I've been to. In a certain state in the Midwest I got cussed out and threatened casue these hicks said I was a one of "them thar Queers" In cali we rarely judge based on the clothes someones wearing and if we do we are very accepting of them. Almost everyone I know is pro gay rights and those that aren't are bigoted hate mongers, I have to specify this so I don't start a new argument, they are hate bigots because they hate all Gay people, they can never give me a logical reason as to why they shouldn't have equal rights so that makes them bigots.

I'am done with this argument however. We are all Brothers and Sisters regardless of if your paid are Volie and I respect almost all of you.

Just for you southside Hillary 08 :p

BCFD in Philly

11-11-2004, 12:27 PM

To No Fear thats not true If they ever find WMD's in Iraq I will accept the fact that the Justification for the war was correct.

As far as States I'am obviously biased, but Cali is one of those places that you either love are hate, We are more open more accepting of peoples differences thats why we have more homosexuals in this state and more homosexual towns, IE Palm Springs, San Diego, San Fran, Palm desert, the coves etc, do we have are issues no doubt everyone does, But I would be willing to bet we have less issues then any other state at least the 30 I've been to. In a certain state in the Midwest I got cussed out and threatened casue these hicks said I was a one of "them thar Queers" In cali we rarely judge based on the clothes someones wearing and if we do we are very accepting of them. Almost everyone I know is pro gay rights and those that aren't are bigoted hate mongers, I have to specify this so I don't start a new argument, they are hate bigots because they hate all Gay people, they can never give me a logical reason as to why they shouldn't have equal rights so that makes them bigots.
I'am done with this argument however. We are all Brothers and Sisters regardless of if your paid are Volie and I respect almost all of you.

Just for you southside Hillary 08 :p

OK, now I get it. Wondered what was behind the twisted and tortured logic of your arguments and rebuttals defending Bill and touting Hillary.

iaff4me

11-11-2004, 11:33 PM

BCFD in Philly

11-12-2004, 08:11 AM

Could not help myself from getting back on this thread. After readingg what if's and should have's i must make a clear and decisive statemnet. Ronald Reagan gave millions of dollars to Saddam and Osama. Don't blame Clinton. Look it up. IAFF>

NO! You look it up and cite verifiable, credible sources and post the links to them.

P.S. - Michael Moore is not considered a credible source, although I'm sure he could fabricate something for you to reference.

SouthsideLadderMan

11-12-2004, 08:36 AM

We are more open more accepting of peoples differences thats why we have more homosexuals in this state and more homosexual towns

Well, thats just peachy. I am SOOO Glad that California is so open to homosexuality. And luckily for me, it's three thousand miles away.

Again how exactly was Iraq a threat if they didn't have the weapons are even the capabilites to deliver a WMD to are shores?

And you have proof that they did not have this capability? How do we know? He dumped the WMD prior to the impending invasion. I guess you believe Hans Blix right? I mean the UN Oil for Food program was a such a well run program that anything a UN Official says must be right...... :rolleyes:

That war taught us you will NEVER defeat Insurgents in their own nation.

If those Men had the proper political backing here at home and abroad, the Vietnam War would have been won. And I do not think it necessarily was lost, the job wasn't finished (Once again doing the work of the French.) We have defeated insurgents in their own Nations prior to this. (Do you think the Nazi's were the official German Government?)

Make up your mind either you are for are against Military Intervention in a nation with a corrupt regime.

I am for Military Intervention against anyone who poses a Direct Threat to THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA! I could care less about Civil Wars between Zulu Warriors in some God Forsaken Wasteland in Africa. However, if they were to turn around and start killing Americans or threatening to, I would say "WASTE THEM." We should have Nuked Fallujah a long time ago. Civilians Killed? It's called "Collateral Damage." It happens in the Spoils of War. These Islamofascist Scumbag, Vermin, Insect, Hitler in a Head Scarf, Lowlife's sure didn't care about the collateral damage in NYC did they? So why should we care about their innocents. You know, ever since this PC "Don't hurt anyone that isnt in a uniform" BullSHIT came about, we have done horribly in War.

Look back to the cities of Bremen and Berlin in WWII, they were reduced to WASTELAND by our bombers, and the people who protested it were told by politicians with some BALLS to "Shut up, we got a nation to defend here." Too bad we gotta listen to this PC Bullshit today. Screw Political Correctness.

Oral Sex is SODOMY. Heres the definition of Sodomy:1. Anal Copulation of one male with another 2. Anal are Oral Copulation with a member of the opposite sex or any copulation with a Animal.

Glad you can quote that definition verbatim. Tells me alot about you. It's still sex. My Fiance is going to kick my ass all the same if I go get a BJ or go screw some whore behind her back. It's wrong. You cannot put a limit on sex. You can't say that some of it is OK and some of it isn't.

So if you Blow a guy in Truckstop Bathroom is your Boyfriend at home going to be mad? But he'll be mad if you take it in the pooper in the Truckstop bathroom though...man, Tainted goods! What a joke you are Chia. I truly hope you don't believe the garbage you type.

Lets stay away from the marriage debate that will only start another huge argument.

There is no debate to be had. Marriage is between a Man and a Woman. Two men or Two women can't get married. It's not my law, and I might not specifically care about it, but alot of states have. I could care less if two guys get married, everyone deserves the tax break.

And trust me dude, we all don't sit out here wishing we were California. That place west of the Sierra Nevada is going to fall into the Pacific eventually, and hopefully, all the Liberal Activists from Hollywood will be there when it happens. SCREW KALIFORNIA!

TaskForce

11-12-2004, 12:28 PM

BCFD:
It's clearly documented fact that Reagan fincnaced bin Landen when the Soviets were in Afghanistan, and that Hussein and Iraq were on the US payroll when they were fighting Komeni (sp?) in Iran...That's not political spin, its fact.

Chris, you know I got love, but...

Anything nuclear is a whole other level of warfare. I know you've not experienced it, and I'd be willing to bet your family hasn't either. So that means you don't clearly understand the implications of this type of weaponry. Now, I've not personally experienced it, either, so I'm no authority, either, but I've lost family to this type of bullshit, and I can tell you it's better to be dead that to suffer the effects.

I doubt your credentials to accurately speak about the United Nations, either. I'm certain you have a lot of experience in fighting fire, cutting cars, and public safety, but let's call a spade a spade. The UN Oil program is one instance among a secretariat of thousands of programs that provide aid globally. Show me a government, NGO, or 501c3 that hasn't had a problem with scandle and I'll show you a volunteer house that has a 0% fail rate. :P If you mean to say that the UN should go away, then you sure as hell better come up with something in its place, because, Republican or Democrat, guess who's going to be made to pick up the bulk of the programs currently ongoing in the world...hrm...

SouthsideLadderMan

11-12-2004, 01:40 PM

Anything nuclear is a whole other level of warfare.

Ok, Mo...you're right. How about 10 or 20 Daisy Cutters?

I am aware that Scandal falls upon the greatest organizations, however they lose alot of credibility when this happens normally. The United Nations is still looked upon by the American Left as the Worlds Great Savior, and I, for one, am not willing to buy that line of s--t. People don't even blink when this impotent organization fails to follow through on all the Resolutions on Iraq. And when someone (Us) finally decides enough is enough, and that there will be no more pandering, and enforces them, the American Left is once again thrown into the "Blame America First" mode. No, you Blame the UN because it was their failed resolutions and Clinton's falied Terror Policies that led the Islamo-Fascist Vermin to think we are a "Paper Tiger."

Chia6004

11-12-2004, 05:57 PM

Ok if your going to start with personal attacks you are a red neck hick, if I'm a gay liberal your a red neck hick.

"We should have Nuked Fallujah a long time ago. Civilians Killed? It's called "Collateral Damage." It happens in the Spoils of War. These Islamofascist Scumbag, Vermin, Insect, Hitler in a Head Scarf, Lowlife's sure didn't care about the collateral damage in NYC did they? So why should we care about their innocents. You know, ever since this PC "Don't hurt anyone that isnt in a uniform" BullSHIT came about, we have done horribly in War."

LOL, There it is, typical, FYI Al Qaida and Iraq are two different things, the people of Iraq and the old regime itself had no operational support with Al Qaida, Hamas yes, I guess you need to look up the 9/11 commision report, which the president was also against, hmm wonder why. After Pearl Harbor there was an independent commision up and running weeks after the attack.

"And you have proof that they did not have this capability? How do we know? He dumped the WMD prior to the impending invasion. I guess you believe Hans Blix right? I mean the UN Oil for Food program was a such a well run program that anything a UN Official says must be right......"

Oh please I can say anything, maybe the aliens took them as a power source for their ships, come on, you show me where they are we have been there for over a year and nothing, you just making things up with no evidence whatsoever does not strengthen your case, see above, there is more proof that there were no WMD's in Iraq, then that they were secretly shipped out in the hours leading up to the Invasion.

"If those Men had the proper political backing here at home and abroad, the Vietnam War would have been won. And I do not think it necessarily was lost, the job wasn't finished (Once again doing the work of the French.) We have defeated insurgents in their own Nations prior to this. (Do you think the Nazi's were the official German Government?)"

FYI there is a difference between a insurgent and a soldier, an Insurgent is someone who revolts against authority, thats why we are calling these people in Fallujah Insurgents not soldiers, so Nazi Germany doesn't work because if I remeber right there was never a rebellion in Germany following are defeat of them.

"Look back to the cities of Bremen and Berlin in WWII, they were reduced to WASTELAND by our bombers, and the people who protested it were told by politicians with some BALLS to "Shut up, we got a nation to defend here." Too bad we gotta listen to this PC Bullshit today. Screw Political Correctness."

Two diff wars, you people need to stop bringing up WWII it doesn't apply in this conversation, If it does show me the Capitol of Al Qaida on a Map. As for us destroying those cities during WWII, the reason we did was because the populace of the nations we were fighting were part of the military complex of those countries, they produced the Tanks, guns and ammo that there army used, thats when civilians became viable targets in the war, actually it was a mistake that lead to the bombing of population centers during WWII, read history and the start of the conflict, prior to the US entering the war Germany and GB were leaving cities alone, until one single bomber mistook one fo there port cities for a military base and bombed it, the Brits responded by bombing Berlin then the Germans responded by carpet bombing every city in GB.

oH AND btw most of are people do not support collateral damage, just because certain hicks that can't tell the difference between Iraq and Afghanistan say that we should kill all them thar towelheads doesn't mean the rest of our nation does.

"Glad you can quote that definition verbatim. Tells me alot about you. It's still sex. My Fiance is going to kick my ass all the same if I go get a BJ or go screw some whore behind her back. It's wrong. You cannot put a limit on sex. You can't say that some of it is OK and some of it isn't."

lol, actually I had to look it up, but I know that Oral copulation isn't sex.

"So if you Blow a guy in Truckstop Bathroom is your Boyfriend at home going to be mad? But he'll be mad if you take it in the pooper in the Truckstop bathroom though...man, Tainted goods! What a joke you are Chia. I truly hope you don't believe the garbage you type."

Actually the gay community is alot different then the hetrosexual community while some enter into monogamus relationships most don't. Whats up with all the hate geez I love homophobes. How is it garbage because we don't share the same views on life, since your a christian, I'm assuming that anyways, does that make the bible garbage because I don't agree with its idea of morality. I give your ideas on life respect sadly your hatefulness can't allow you to do the same and you wonder why people leave your god awful states to come here.

"trust me dude, we all don't sit out here wishing we were California. That place west of the Sierra Nevada is going to fall into the Pacific eventually, and hopefully, all the Liberal Activists from Hollywood will be there when it happens. SCREW KALIFORNIA!"

Yes because we don't have a contiental shelf like every other shoreline were just floating on the water. Where did that myth come from exactly?

Once again I don't hate you southside we have a difference of opinion and I do respect it but I had to respond to the name calling this time. FYI I'am not a homosexual just because I accept them and support them doesn't mean I like it up the ass, I have friends who are gay and thats how I know alot about the gay community.