Its been a while, is this a good op?

[Phantom]

Is the correct use of a tower ladder?

[Truck123]

Ranch dwelling, no smoke on the front windows (from what I can see), fire through the roof, and the tower blowing the fire right back in...

Without seeing side 3, hard to say if the main floor was the cause.

Get some interior crews working and shut that damn tower down!

[Truckinainteasy]

Again! A lack of the basics!.. Get in, hit the fire, get the ceilings down and check for extension. Burnin the roof off of a ranch house is just tacky. And revoke that ladder tower license from em too. That is just sad, sad, sad truck work.

[Transporter11]

Being a firefighter that just came from that area..Missouri/Illinois. This is unfortunately a pretty common practice. I guess it's just thier "style" Case in point. The city of St. Louis does not have an engine in thier fleet. All quints.

[Phantom]

Is this an example of we bought this monster now we have to use it, or is it related to a lack of training, or something else I'm missing? Looks a little like tunnel vision to me.

[Transporter11]

Combination of things, the text book answer....we would rather lose the house than lose a firefighter. ie. the roof was collapsing, walls cracking, possible arson traps set up inside, etc...none of us were there so it's hard to say what may have been going on inside. Now don't get me wrong not all fires are fought this way, but I have seen this kind of scenerio played out before. Reminds me of the quote "stick goes up, house comes down."

[Phantom]

Don't get me wrong, if they think that using the tower makes them safer then I'm not saying don't use it, I'm saying use it properly. There appears to be plenty of room to operate the stream from below the fire (ie through the front window and doors directed into the attic)

[Transporter11]

Agreed, it could be used in an "offensive way" But from my experience they view a ladder/tower as a defensive, raise it high and let it rip kind of tool. Therefore that is how they train and use it. That's what I meant earlier when I said that's their "style." Until I took a job on the east coast I was in that same mentallity. A ladder station was considered the retirement home because unless it was a confirmed working fire...it sat at the house.

[Transporter11]

waiting for the next parade of special function.

[Executioner]

Like Truck123 said, it is hard to see side 3. I want to make sure I'm seeing something correct on the picture, though- is the Tower Ladder hitting right in the middle of the trench cut, or is that a different hole in the roof?

[stirnitupp]

That is a good question Executioner...I was wondering if that is just fire blowing out of the roof or if they did a trench cut. But it looks to me (barring not having seen side 3, and any extenuating circumstances) this fire would be better handled by an interior crew.

[Truckinainteasy]

The problem as I see it is no fire or smoke in the living area. Use of the TL from above relies on holes created by the fire. The stream penetrates the hole and the sheetrock and bounces harmlessly on the living area floor. The fire burns unchecked underneath the intact roof, which cleverly enough repels water. A collapse into the living area would usually result in fire and smoke from the windows / doors. Using the TL down low on this place would be difficult due to limited access, it usually works better with many/larger openings. A quicker and more effective use of the TL might be through the gable vents at the ends or simply laddering the building and shoving a line in if they thought the roof was compromised. Again, if the attack started via the interior these things are usually knocked with good truck work (hooks) and sufficient water flow from below into the void space where the underside of the roof allows the stream to be banked or a fog stream to expand.

[allpro]

Why did they even show-up?

[Chips]

Yes if the house is a wrght off and just a suround and drown but not if it can be saved

Just rember on thing no house is worth killing your self or a brother or sister

[Phantom]

Yes if the house is a wrght off and just a suround and drown but not if it can be saved

Just rember on thing no house is worth killing your self or a brother or sister


I think this post is an example of why we are talking about this op
1. The house is not a write off
2. No one is advocating getting firemen hurt, in fact the operation shown could get firemen hurt because it is way outside of any tactic taught in the fire service. ( Even if it is widely used.)
3. After reading all through all the posts, the above is all you can come up with - don't bother.

[Executioner]

I'm just trying to get it confirmed that there is either a trench cut or that hole was made just from the fire. Anyone who was on this call know for sure?

[Phantom]

Do these pictures show more of the same or is this different?

Executioner, I am pretty sure that is not a trench cut.

[allpro]

The first thing I noticed is apparatus placement. If that old structure should give under the weight of thousands of gallons of water; then the fire fighters and fire trucks will crushed. IF unoccupied flow the elevated master stream through one window and a deck gun or delluge set through the other. Protect exposures with handlines.

[Truckinainteasy]

Given the overall response I would doubt it's a trench cut. The trench cut is very misunderstood and misused even more often. I can come up with NO, ZERO, NADA uses for a trench cut on a private dwelling.. none at all. I'd bet anything the fire burned through.

[Executioner]

Ok, thats fine. The way the pic was taken, the roof on the 1st pic was at an angle that I was unsure if that was a trench hole or fire hole. The pics that Phantom shows I know that is definitely not a trench cut (no shit, Sherlock.) Thanks again.

Truckinainteasy, what is your take on good/bad things about a trench cut?

[Truckinainteasy]

Truckinainteasy, what is your take on good/bad things about a trench cut?[/QUOTE]

Good things:
On a large enough building it is a defensive maneuver to stop fire spread through an open cockloft.

Bad things:
It is attempted way too often. It's pretty rare when you get a good op for a trench
It is not supported from below, if you are gonna trench you need guys underneath with hooks and hoses
It is used first instead of after a primary vent. A trench is not ventilation, ventilation allows the interior crews to work, the trench doesn't. Get a big hole over the fire and then trench far enough ahead.
It is rarely completed correctly, ya gotta open that roof side to side and any openings that allow fire to slip around (mansards, etc...)

The bottom line is that most firegrounds are understaffed to do everything necessary and most fires don't need a trench. Attack the fire, vent the roof, get ahead with hooks and handlines and stop it from inside.

More later.. i gotta sleep off some early christmas cheer.. seeya

[gitter-done]

1st picture
In my first due area ranch style homes are prevalent in the newer portion of town. To me this is a text book fire the does “NOT” require the use of a tower. A crew with hooks & a line could easily knock this fire in minutes. Looking at the pic’s all the fire is in the attic and not the living area.
2nd picture
The overhead approach seems to not be the best from first glance. I’d rather put the tower bucket below the #2 floor windows with a straight tip through the ceiling. After the bulk is knocked mop it up with handlines.

[Lt. Utah]

Phantom, Your first set of pictures should be used to train operators on the IMPROPER use of a tower ladder. I don't know what those guys in the picture are, but they definitely are not FIREMAN. That is a simple 1 story rancher with fire involving the attic area. For all the years I was on the job, the best way to put a fire of that nature out was to open up from beneath and attack the fire. In the 2nd set of photo's, if you are going to use a tower ladder, the correct method would be to direct the stream through the 2nd floor window up into the ceiling area to extinguish the fire. Once the fire has broken through the roof, operating a heavy caliber stream through a roof opening does only one thing- it pushes the fire back theough the roof area.

[stirnitupp]

I agree with allpro about the second set of pictures. Given the looks of the building, the amount of fire coming out of it and the amount of water being put into it, a collapse doesn't seem like an unlikely event. The standard amount of space to leave is 1.5 times the height of the building, and it doesn't look like that is going on. The safest spot may be at the corners, but those guys with the hoseline could easily be crushed (the ones protecting the side D exposure).

[Executioner]

Lt. Utah: heavy caliber stream through roof opening = steam bath for those left inside (if any unfortunate.) stirnitup: In a "possible collapse sitatuion", the truck or TL would be safer at the corners of the building, yes? Of course far enough away from the collapse zone, but also close enough to efficently do their job. The TL in the pic looks to be near A/B corner, but it is a little hard to tell if this is done.

[Phantom]

Phantom, Your first set of pictures should be used to train operators on the IMPROPER use of a tower ladder. I don't know what those guys in the picture are, but they definitely are not FIREMAN. That is a simple 1 story rancher with fire involving the attic area. For all the years I was on the job, the best way to put a fire of that nature out was to open up from beneath and attack the fire. In the 2nd set of photo's, if you are going to use a tower ladder, the correct method would be to direct the stream through the 2nd floor window up into the ceiling area to extinguish the fire. Once the fire has broken through the roof, operating a heavy caliber stream through a roof opening does only one thing- it pushes the fire back theough the roof area.

Amen, that would be exactly the answer I was fishing for :D

[Oldcaptain]

Looks like overkill to me!

Looks like they have/had a running attic fire. What ever happened to the aggressive tactic of getting inside, dropping the ceiling and getting after it with a SB???

I have done it that way many times and almost always manage success.

[Oldcaptain]

2nd set of pics is a crap shoot. In that I mean what are the conditions on the second floor? There is no visible smoke from the windows on the A side, so maybe they could have gotten in there and got after it. A bit bigger building and a bit more fire perhaps, but who knows?

As Brunacinni says....."When the pipe goes up the building comes down!"

[1014engine]

This is what the Firehouse (http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?id=37549&sectionId=45) article about this fire said:

“On Thursday, December 16, 2004, members of Central County Fire & Rescue in St. Peters, Missouri responded to a residential structure fire, assisted by Cottleville Fire Protection District and St. Charles City Fire Department.
Dispatched at 2:16 PM, the first due company was in quarters just two minutes away. Upon their arrival, they found fire venting through the roof and began an aggressive interior attack of a fully involved attic.
With the roof becoming unstable, interior crews were pulled out and a defensive attack was made using the ladder company. The fire was brought under control within minutes of the defensive being initiated.
There were no injuries in this fire believed to be a result of Christmas decorations, thanks to a passing motorist whom stopped and notified the occupants to vacate the home.”

My vote is for this was a piss poor operation. Get inside, pull some ceiling, get water on it, everyone goes home. Sadly, this is what passes for firefighting in more and more departments these days. Like someone else said, why even show up?
Nice to see Watchdesk readers in agreement on something. :) Merry Christmas everyone.

PS...here is a pic of the initial operation. You be the judge.

[Truck123]

Seeing this pic shows that this run had no aggresive interior attack, unless it was from side 2, 3, or 4 which I highly doubt. Seeing 1 attack line in the above photo with he/she preparing to open the line from the outside, then the pics that Phantom posted on page 1 with the platform blowing water from the outside after the fact.... bad command in my opinion.

Not 1 line strecthed into the front door? C'mon guys! Unless I am missing something in these photo's, why even show up when someone calls 911?

[Badazzfireman57]

Having the tower up flowing water looks good to the public on the 6 o'clock news. Remember that they don't know anything about fire fighting.

[DALINE]

Hey Read the sid eof the Tower it says" Central County" thats the problem...its one of those lonely fire dept. the average 9 ambulance calls a month and have like 95 vol roster...then there just not Aggressive FF unlike us P.G. Fians we Fire fight until we fight each other.......

[whacker1401]

okay don't bash the "lonley " county dept.s it is probably just poor training and lack of calls of this type. If the Ic called for this attack then crucify him not the crews. But that is just my take on it. I don't any more info than you. But the attack type is in general wrong.

[allpro]

What's wrong with this?


http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=45&id=43860

[stoned dragon]

I take a stab at this...

- Are you referring to the initial attack of the fire in the garage from the driveway vs through the interior?

- Are you referring to the chain of events as listed in the article?

- Are you referring to the 1st due chief not establishing command?

I must have to conclude that these guys don't get much work based on the way this is written up. One would hate to see these guys have a bigger incident if this, what appears to be a nickle and dime house fire, depleted their resources.

There are more pictures posted on their website, listed at the bottom of the article.

[allpro]

All of the above. These guys made more of this fire than necessary. I saw the pictures on their web site. I wonder if this is their SOP for garage fires or did the first arriving engine just have tunnel vision?

[whacker1401]

allpro summed up what I was driving. This is or has great potential for a Charlie Fox Trot and even worse bad PR for everyone els in the fire service. But for the record the first set of pictures is what I am was discussing. The other pictures I have no background with that type of structure fire. we don't have too many like that in my neck of the woods.

[Jake287]

I have to agree with the majority of folks here. This is not a good operation. As for their operating style, as one of you put it, I can't imagine anyone who trained them in truck operations advocating it. Speaking as a member of a company that has a telesquirt as a first responding piece, just because it has an aerial ladder on it doesn't mean you have to put it up and flow water with it. The basics still apply and using the piece in that manner is just wasting time and effort, along with a alot of water. Use your equipment to your best possible advantage and for the safety of all concerned.

[AcrossTheCeilin]

This only a good Op if you trying to burn the house down or get someone hurt

[Axe16c]

What's wrong with this?


http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=45&id=43860
Doesn't look like a single one of those so called "firefighters" went into the building! Gee guys lets piss on it from the outside so we can make it a parking lot! :eek: Not being rude, just brutally honest. Why not go inside and push the fire back to the point of origin? If they extinguished the kitchen then worked to the garage, why is the house a total loss? The accompanying story just doesn't concide with the pictures shown. I believe the story was poorly written and the firefighting poorly executed.

[FIREFIGHTER4]

I believe in towers and ops like that but I believe it was the wrong move. Where are the lines for a defensive attack or to protect the other structures? In a situation like that I would shut down the tower and place a ground attack to the structure because all the truck is doing is pushing the fire throughout the rest of the house. No need to get anyone hurt but need to protect exposures.Looks like there is alot of freelancing going on but that is just my opinion.

[allpro]

FIREFIGHTER4:

I have been on a few fires like that (attic). All of the heat is above you. They look spectacular from the outside, but all you need is a good man on the line and some hooks ripping all of the ceiling out. Shit you could probably make without breathing air.

[FIREFIGHTER4]

Allpro:
I believe in every word you are saying it still looks pretty well attached the fire is all in the upper part of the structure if it were me I would atleast attempt to do an interior attack or better yet knock the windows out and pull the ceiling down and work a offensive/defensive attack where you are working on the inside but never in it. What you think ALLPRO?

[allpro]

I was reffering to the pictres from page 1; the house with fire comming through the roof and the retards flowing the master stream down into the house.

[FIREFIGHTER4]

I believe it was a waste of water. They should have some handlines in operation dont you think?

[PhillyTruck18]

In most cases, rural areas dont seem to have ladder companies. Not having ladder companies means not having laddermen. No having laddermen means saving the foundation. All this job needed was a couple hooks and a line. No big deal. Its funny to watch companies do their best to burn down a dwelling. They always seems to have a good reason why they couldnt do it right. In this case, it appears a roof is to blame. We all know the real reason, the damn ceiling prevented them from getting to the fire. They just couldnt figure out how the hell to get above the ceiling. It perplexed them. :(

[P.G. Brother]

In most cases, rural areas dont seem to have ladder companies. Not having ladder companies means not having laddermen. No having laddermen means saving the foundation. All this job needed was a couple hooks and a line. No big deal. Its funny to watch companies do their best to burn down a dwelling. They always seems to have a good reason why they couldnt do it right. In this case, it appears a roof is to blame. We all know the real reason, the damn ceiling prevented them from getting to the fire. They just couldnt figure out how the hell to get above the ceiling. It perplexed them. :(

I agree 100% with this statement. Seems that this sis something that should be STRESSED alot more in most firefighter 1 classes. They show the different hooks and how to use them, but I don't think most classes really stress these type fires where everyone who is not on the line should be up there hooking ceilings.

[Jim911Fire]

WOW.....something must be seriously wrong to have that going on. I can't see any fire ground officer in their right mind thinking that was a good thing. I understand that it happens....but damn it ain't right.

[lilbronx292]

As a station (that's outside 5 miles of me now) quotes "Haven't lost a foundation yet!?"

[crt666]

http://www.rvfc.org/html/9-5-2006.html
Please go to this link scroll down to the T3 Shot.
15th Pic down.
Is that the correct use for a tower?

[heavy-hitter]

Actually it is. You want to get at the seat of the fire. Placing the basket in the bay door and cooling the beams to prevent collapse and getting a heavy stream on the fire is a good tactic. Flowing from above only makes for good pictures. Roofs are made to keep water out, and if there is a whole burned through; it doesn't always give you the best means to extinguish the fire.

[Bofa]

I agree with your statement heavy, it's just that the picture doesn't tell the whole story. Do I think they soaked the hell out of the place, yep, and that's fine in my opinion. Do I think they were planning on cooling down beams, nah. Judging by the looks of the product in the warehouse, and having to use a bobcat, they probably were not making allot of headway with just handlines. That's just my opinion. Well, you know the rest. :eek: :D

[mohican]

In most cases, rural areas dont seem to have ladder companies. Not having ladder companies means not having laddermen. No having laddermen means saving the foundation. :(


kinda elitist outlook on it

It's not the lack of ladder companies that crimp rural firefighting in many instances. We have a good reputation for quick stops, and the only thing that remotely resembles an aerial is a 40 foot bucket truck donated by a local power company. (well, I guess we do have a 60ft Bangor Ladder :D)

Training, tactics, and a willingness to get to the fire helps out quite a bit.

As far as this "saving the foundation" business, many rural departments might have problems that go way beyond the lack of a ladder or tower. Response time, water supply and sometimes equipment issues hamstring rural FDs.

BTW, some of the biggest screwups I've seen during rural ops were committed by our full time "big city" brethren pitching in. I won't go further, because the eternal full time vs Volly, City vs Rural pissing match doesn't serve the point of this educational section of the forum.

[unstable2]

http://www.rvfc.org/html/9-5-2006.html
Please go to this link scroll down to the T3 Shot.
15th Pic down.
Is that the correct use for a tower?
Thats not a bad thing we have done that with our tower a few times it don't hurt. Thats big with FDNY when the have store fronts and stuff like that.

[FDLeathers.com]

Good, bad, who is to say? I agree with pull the ceilings, and hit it. With that being said, it is also up the OIC how he/she wants it done. Maybe there was something else that happen, that they went to this type of attack. On another note, there is enough fire load already, that maybe interior noticed the roof joists were burning thru, and did not want to have anyone inside if it collapsed. Already been in one collapse, and will tell you it aint a pretty sight.

[grumpier old man]

preplaning Commerical with a specified district is more and more a need today then ever before.. with a CEO (building permit issuer) gets his/her plans for a renovation or a new job from ground to complete those MUST be available to the district Fire Chief..some form of narative in a run book or something should be available with in a short time for an incident commander to decide from what is seen as a fire condition to do the best for all concerned..volunteers have it worse as Paid SHOULD do yearly walk thrus of places determined as questionable safetly and make notes.. especially if large enough to warrant Mutual AID...automatically...smaller ones at atleast once in 3-5 yr period..small town store fronts inside OLD homes are still Commerical rated,they must conply w those codes..or very well should..thing is most times they only conform to the store only area as rewired seperate most times..but again...each state or commonwealt has its own way to do things... for my self..Scheduled visits on ALL commerical with a district should be rotated at least once every 2-3 yrs or LESS..as run books kept up to date...they want to give u money for their protection they better allow us to see if u are...accidents happen but age and neglect does not excuse an owner from his liabilty towards his investment..and the local tax base..

I say this when ANY ONE files for a renovation or a site new build a report should be backed up with some form of walk thru once completed especially when a building is renovated and the shell remains..even roof..