Many different ways to lose members within your company or dept real quick.

[Fireduck]

The following is an Editorial of what "MAY" happen within your respective Dept or Company by pissing with the "WRONG" People that seem to think the Dept or Company belongs to them as if they are the owner(s) of it.

Many different ways to lose members within your company or dept real quick.
Directly lie to their faces @ meetings, drills, fundraisers & so forth.

DO NOT Back up the membership when they have a legit complaint againist another member or officer.

Deny them their rights as members to see the finanicial records of said company/dept.

"Slide" certain members in as regular members with out a vote or approval from the membership, & then tell the membership this person has been a long standing member of the Dept/Company for quite some time.

Explain that Family & Job(s) come first before the Fire Company/Dept does, but hence a member DOES NOT show for a firecall or fundraiser, start & continue to belittle them for not being there in the first place. Continue to do this in front of other members also. (This rule also applies when a member belongs with another dept too)

Talk SERIOUS dirt on other Depts/Companies to your members, Play ArmChair God QB while standing inside your dept/company listening to another dept's call. But when members of "Dirt Companies/Depts" around you & your members, start talking as if they are the greatest gift since sliced bread. (This same rule applies to your sister companies if there any also.)

Make false claims to other members that a member is a thief (in your eyes) simply because said member did not do a favor for you.

Falsfiy Fire Reports to reflect certain members being there (even though they were not) & to show other members where not there even though they were. (This rule applies to make your company/dept look good in front Council Members)

Treat your members as good friends & stab them directly in the back when they are not around you.

"BEND" the Dept/Company Bylaws to your advantage anytime you so wish, but then tell the membership "this is not the way it is, it done this way" when the members question why you did such.


Or maybe how many people are in the service to "make a name for themselves" & at the same time try to run "their" Fire Dept/Company the way they want to & not giving a damn about their members whom "also" make up that same Dept/Company.

Trust me, "IF" it did happen in a company/dept it was attempted to be addressed, but shot down by the "select few" God Like Figures, you would then be told, "if you dont like the way it is here go elsewhere!" But then moment you would even attempt such, then your name was smeared as a threat when you would attempt to join another company/dept.

Also another thing to be added:
Threaten Members & their Families with Bodily Harm, if you so much as question as to why one of their family members are on a call, when they should not be. (I am talking directly on fire ground, getting in the way of Firefighters trying to do their job)

Either have happened in a Dept/Company
May have happened in 2 or 3 seperate Companies/Depts
Could happen @ any time.

:eek: :D :eek: :D :eek:

[Executioner]

You raise a lot of hell here, Fireduck. You pose some important info. Hopefully people will heed this advice and change their ways (if needed.) It had to be said. Someone said it. WTG, Fireduck, thanks.

[SouthsideLadderMan]

I hope you do not think this is only a problem in your Firehouse. It goes on everyday in alot of Firehouses. It's all about how you deal with it that matters. If you don't let it get to you, you can do what ya gotta do with minimal problem.

[Fireduck]

I hope you do not think this is only a problem in your Firehouse. It goes on everyday in alot of Firehouses. It's all about how you deal with it that matters. If you don't let it get to you, you can do what ya gotta do with minimal problem.
Never said it was only a problem with in my fire dept, in fact, I do not run with a FD, these are somethings I have seen in a Dept where Friends & Family run. Are you volly or paid Southside? Reason why I am asking is simply this next few pieces for example:

Recently about 2 weeks ago, a friend of mine was @ his place of employment during daylight hours. His Dept was punched for a Structure Fire in their respective District. He was @ work, so could not make the call,, however when he did show for drill later that evening, was Ridiculed by his Chief for not making the call!! He explained he was @ work during the call & could not leave (he works over 35 miles from his dept), this was not good enough accordding to his chief whom "demanded" to see his time card by the next drill date or was going to brought up on charges of failing to show for a call.

Now mind you,, this is a VOLUNTEER Dept he runs with,,XXX Volunteer Fire Dept, they receive no type of compensation for answering calls (which some Depts due compensate their members in different ways), because of his work schedule & distance of travel, he has already been told that he will not & cannot run for a L/O or E/O position within the Dept. Now is there something wrong with this picture? According to that Dept ByLaws, he has met all requirements, by since this chief states "no, he cant run for a position" the words stand, but others whom you never see in 8 or 9 months, shows for 1 call or fundraiser,,they can run for any position.

This has not only happened with this certain member, but others,,these people are very experienced & well trained,,its not like a 6 month probie walking in saying "he wants to be chief" these members all have been in this dept for @ least 4 years (no less). 1 member put an application in a dept closer to his residence & this same chief found out about it,,called that Dept Chief & did nothing but belittle this member in every way, shape & form. Even mentioned personal things pertaining to that member, just to try & prevent him from getting in there. Hell this same person even went to the extremes of calling ones' employer in attempts to get that person fired, simply because they (the chief & member) had a disagreement over something quite stupid & not pertaining to FD business.

It is real sad to see things like this happen, these people are very dedicated to a community they dont even live in, they try to have personal lives, but again, cant simply because it is thrown in their faces at a later time.

Now yes, maybe they should leave the Dept, but again who suffers? The Community does, simply because they lost quite a few good FFs.

[Executioner]

No, the community would suffer because we can't all just get along, and this particular chief needs to remove that "stick" and understand that, while volunteering is great and all, it doesn't pay the bills.

[TheFranchise]

wow, it's almost like your a member at my station. Hmmmmmmmm..............weird.

[SouthsideLadderMan]

I am a Volunteer, but we don't use Home Response that much so I don't know where you are coming from. We have a few guys that come up to make a second crew, but aside from that, everyone stands-by at the station or sleeps in.

If you don't show for a call, you won't get nailed. Sounds like a screwed up department. I think you will find favoritism at any station you go to as well. That I can sympathize with because I see favoritism all the time, and it's screwed up.

[Fireduck]

I am a Volunteer, but we don't use Home Response that much so I don't know where you are coming from. We have a few guys that come up to make a second crew, but aside from that, everyone stands-by at the station or sleeps in.

If you don't show for a call, you won't get nailed. Sounds like a screwed up department. I think you will find favoritism at any station you go to as well. That I can sympathize with because I see favoritism all the time, and it's screwed up.
Screwed up is putting it very politely to say the least. This same chief has also told "certain" members that they must choose between companies (if they run with 2 seperate companies) but yet it is ok for a "select few" to run with another company, show up @ stationXXX for a Structure Fire Assist, leaves because no one up in a matter of 2-3 minutes, so this same officer left stationXXX to go his "primary" station ZZZ & answer the call with 2 Jr Members. Now while on scene as stationXXX arrived also, this same officer explained what he did & the chief stated oh, ok no problem, all the while station XXX was scrambling to get a driver, even though 2 other officers showed up approx 4 minutes after the "other" officer left to go to Station ZZZ. Also, a "select few" (3 total) are Drivers between 5 different pieces of Apparatus, so if these Drivers do not show for any given reason, then no one rolls,, but the moment the Chief finds out he starts bitching everyone a new ass.

I can go into more with certain things but if so, then Chief XZX or one of his croon suckers will again threaten certain members with what ever they feel. As said, the real sad part is, these guys are highly trained & experienced in the field, A few do run with a second company (before joining Dept XXX) they have been there for a while, so if Chief Xzx decided to call the other station & start crap, most of the chiefs in the area do not beleive word 1 from this man. However, when the other members try to go for another dept (IE: closer to home) then Chief XZX will make all attempts to dis credit them thru & thru again. Now this same Chief, instead of going after you directly, he will tell everyone else 1st, once the story gets back to you, then it has changed more hands over, so when you confront him or attempt to, he denies anything was even said & the remaining people were lying.

By Laws, change, SOPs change, General House Rules change more times over in this station than you or I change our socks. Very sad, the Community loses quite a bit if these Men & Women leave.

[Executioner]

Everyone must remember that this job is being done for the surrounding communities we serve- personal issues are left at the door. It sounds like that Chief has issues, but some people you just can't change. It's like that in every dept, and it's the communities that could suffer because some people have a problem getting their act together.

Go where you can to help who you can. Preach your 2 cents or document all you want, but the end result should not be these men & women leaving companies, but the membership trying to work out issues so you only have to deal with the stress of the job, and not the personal stress inside the walls as well.

[EMT/FF99]

Everyone must remember that this job is being done for the surrounding communities we serve- personal issues are left at the door. It sounds like that Chief has issues, but some people you just can't change. It's like that in every dept, and it's the communities that could suffer because some people have a problem getting their act together.

Go where you can to help who you can. Preach your 2 cents or document all you want, but the end result should not be these men & women leaving companies, but the membership trying to work out issues so you only have to deal with the stress of the job, and not the personal stress inside the walls as well.
I agree, it does sound the Chief has some SERIOUS Issues to deal with & should leave them at the door. It is real sad to see & hear things such as this going on, in the short & long run, the People of the Community & the Community itself are the ones that lose. Guess some people cannot see beyond their "own little walls" in matter such as this. God Like Syndrome perhaps? or "I live in a Glass House & will be stupid enough to throw stones @ others?"

[Executioner]

Hate to say "I told you so" when they throw the stone or rock the boat. They might learn when the glass cuts them or they drown, but it's a life lesson learned the hard way. Maybe it should just be said that chiefs should know better.

[DenverDenter]

Sounds like a bunch of assholes run that dept.

[Chia6004]

Damn and I thought that when I was a volie w/ RCOFD that they had issues, crap. Nothing near that.

[EMT/FF99]

Damn and I thought that when I was a volie w/ RCOFD that they had issues, crap. Nothing near that.
Scary Thought isnt it, to know other Depts do the same thing?

[Executioner]

Perhaps an even scarier thing is the thread on the Baltimore Co. section concerning Alabama Vollies sued for accepting $10/call. Check it out. Maybe we can compare notes here.

[scfire86]

If everyone up and quits for a week or even submits their resignation it will get the attention of the city fathers real quick. And that is who needs to be made aware of the power trip this chief had going on.

A lot of you vollies won't like this, but I'm going to get on my union soap box for a minute. The labor movement in the US is generally considered to be originated by several people, one of whom was a man named Eugene V. Debs from Terra Haute, IN. One of the jobs he had was a fireman on a locomotive back when they had such things. It was a very dangerous job and people were injured or killed regularly. After seeing how shabbily the railroad barons treated the injured worker or his surviving family (sorry, at the time, no women allowed) he was stirred to organized workers and demand better working conditions.

So we seque to your situation Fireduck. You get a large group of people to quit all at once and write a letter to the whoever the electeds are of the dept explaining why, you'll get attention. Your biggest threat is that you're volunteers. You do this for community service. If no one volunteers, the city might or might not be forced to pay for fire protection, or demand the county or state provide fire protection. And I guarantee they don't want to have to explain to the folks who live there why everyone is quitting and putting the city at risk.

Just my thought.

[Executioner]

A lot of you vollies won't like this, but I'm going to get on my union soap box for a minute.

People may not like what you have to say but most of them will show enough respect to listen to you.

Personally, if you don't go over your "minute", then youre fine by me ;) lol

[mohican]

And a union is an answer to this how? :rolleyes:

is is mentioned in this tirade that the members have went to the chief, or went to the mayor, fire board, trustees, or whatever to take care of this?

If this is going on, then it needs handled quickly!!!

But, when the thread list talking down other departments as one of the moral breakers, and the complainer isn't a member of the department then that's a double standard right off the bat, and airing supposed dirty laundry about a department he doesn't belong to.

[scfire86]

And a union is an answer to this how? :rolleyes:



It isn't. I never said anything of the sort. My comments about the beginnings of the labor movement dovetailed into this situation because of labor's beginnings. WORKING CONDITIONS!!!! According to the anecdotes of the threads writer, working conditions SUCK!!!! Even the best paying job in the world can SUCK. And if it does, it will cause those involved to ultimately leave.

If there is a mass leaving of the department that would get people's attention immediately. And I mean the people who can make a difference. When someone volunteers, their most valuable resource is their time. Which is something none of us ever gets back. If I were in a situation of volunteering for an effort that was affecting me negatively outside of that service, my committment to it would cease. That's just me, I know.

It sounds like this chief is on a power trip. Since he is chief of a volunteer department, he only has as much power as his subordinates give him. When they figure that out, his behavior will change.

And then on the other hand. It may all be part of the chief's plan to be as obnoxious as possible to push out people he doesn't like, want, or believes bring no value to the organization.

[mohican]

It sounds like this chief is on a power trip. Since he is chief of a volunteer department, he only has as much power as his subordinates give him. When they figure that out, his behavior will change.



Only if it was a volunteer department where the members voted for chief

That's extremely rare anymore

Most volunteers chiefs are appointments.

Let's examine some of the charges (second hand according to FireDuck, because he says he is not a member
Falsifying Reports
Threatening people with bodily harm
Complaining to the volunteers bosses at their places of employment

It sounds like some southern boss hog movie where the evil white good ole boy controls everything :eek:

If any of these people had any cajones, and went above the chief, there is no way, even in a backwater, a chief would stay on with even 2 out of 10 of these charges. I smell a rat, a rat with poor grammar.

[scfire86]

Only if it was a volunteer department where the members voted for chief


I smell a rat, a rat with poor grammar.

Not necessarily. There are enough ways to screw with someone through official means even if the person is appointed.

And your second point I listed is well taken.

If someone who volunteers is unhappy with working conditions, do something about it or quit. Otherwise your lack of action is tacit approval of this chief's management style.

[Emtmom]

Only if it was a volunteer department where the members voted for chief

That's extremely rare anymore

Most volunteers chiefs are appointments.

Let's examine some of the charges (second hand according to FireDuck, because he says he is not a member
Falsifying Reports
Threatening people with bodily harm
Complaining to the volunteers bosses at their places of employment

It sounds like some southern boss hog movie where the evil white good ole boy controls everything :eek:

If any of these people had any cajones, and went above the chief, there is no way, even in a backwater, a chief would stay on with even 2 out of 10 of these charges. I smell a rat, a rat with poor grammar.
Here, we still vote our officers in and we are all Volunteers. As far as I know there are very few vol. depts. here who's chiefs are appointed. So I would imagine that it's where you are as to whether or not your chief is voted on or appointed. Our dept. has a standing committee, that you can take things like this to. If you fail there you can go to the town, we can only go to the town, because they fund us through a yearly budget.
Departments that do not get money from the town I would assume have no place above the chief to take it. Sounds to me like this was taken to the chief and the results were nothing. (assuming this actually did happen, since it does say may have happened)
From experience I've seen something similar happen, and the chief made promises to members, to get them on his side. Several membbers walked away, then the town stepped in, shut down the dept.. The chief filed a lawsuit against the town, and got the dept. reopened. A town vote stopped funding and shut down the dept. once again. After 3 years in court and over 100,000.00 of both town and dept. money, (made through fundraisers) not only is all the money gone, but the department was shut down permanently.
Sometimes things don't always work out the way we want them too!

[mohican]

I can only speak for Ohio, but if it receives public funds, then voting for a chief is probably verboten, unless it would be a private fire company that contracts with a village or townships. Those are growing rarer all the time.

A department that is controlled by a public entity, whether vollie, full time, or combi, will most likely have a chief that is appointed by the governing body, not the membership of the fire department.

That is only partially germain to this conversation.

I think we are at least partially getting a fish story from a duck.

[EMT/FF99]

I think we are at least partially getting a fish story from a duck.
Nope, not a "fish story" by the duck. This matter the duck is talking about has to deal with me & my involvement with a former (as of Jan 2005) Fire Company. Since I am no longer a member there, I can explain simply a little bit more (without naming the Fire Company nor Members/Officers involved).

I was a Line Officer with a Fire Company for 1 year & a member for this same for close to 3 years active. However, with my work schedule affected my involvement later down the road as to answering calls, going to drill(s) & fund raisers. This was not good enough for the Sr. Officers involved, they felt that you must make 90% of the calls, be at ALL drills & fund raisers, no questions asked & no complaints, but yet they did not show for their end of the calls.

There was no communication(s) between the Chief, Asst Chief & the 2 Lts in anyway shape nor form pertaining to Drills & such. If neither the Chief or Asst. Chief did not show up on the required drill night, the Lt(s) could not hold drill & if they did, they were repremanded for it.

Approx 3-4 months ago, I joined another Fire Company (which nothing is stated within the 1st Station's SOPs or Bylaws pertaining to not running with more than 1 Fire Co/Dept.), which happened to be closer to my residence. Since this has happened, the Chief of the 1st Station has taken it upon himself to contact the Chief of the other Station I run with stating false accusations pertaining to me. That has since stopped for approx 1 month, however now, the Asst Chief last evening had taken it upon himself to stop @ the 2nd Station & make the same false accusations as were previously made by the 1st Chief. Can we say H-A-R-R-A-S-E-M-E-N-T Ladies & Gentlemen?
I was removed from this Company in their Jan 2005 membership meeting, due to the following reasons:

Dis-obeying orders from a Line Officer via cellphone (Not while on a Firecall, Drill, nor Fundraiser) I had received a few phone calls from the Chief, Asst Chief & Lt pertaining un known matters at that time, that I must "return" their call(s) right away. These same Officers feel that since they are Line Officers, that when they call you whether you are at work, home or out, that YOU must return their calls or answer your phone right then & there. If you dont, well then you get bitched at for not answering & accused of "avoiding" their calls.

Devulging Company Information here on TWD
Looking back thru all my posts, there is nothing directly nor in-directly naming this Fire Company nor devulging Company Information (that apparently is so seceretive & sensistive) that "others" do not already know. Other stating maybe how good of a job that this company & others have done on previous fire calls.
For what the Duck has posted here previously pertaining to Harrasment, Getting Bitched at sessions, the talking down of Sister Companies, the non backing of members when they hold a legit complaint againist another Member or Officer, Make false claims to other members that a member is a thief (in your eyes) simply because said member did not do a favor for you, "BEND" the Dept/Company Bylaws to your advantage anytime you so wish, but then tell the membership "this is not the way it is, it done this way" when the members question why you did such. Yes this has all happened within this very Fire Company. I am witness to all & it is a shame that this same Company with the Awesome History it has, has Members within.

Trust me, it did happen in this company/dept it was attempted to be addressed, but shot down by the "select few" God Like Figures, you would then be told, "if you dont like the way it is here go elsewhere!" But then moment you would even attempt such, then your name was smeared as a threat when you would attempt to join another company/dept. (As to what I am going thru now with the Dept I currently run with)

Threaten Members & their Families with Bodily Harm, if you so much as question as to why one of their family members are on a call, when they should not be. (I am talking directly on fire ground, getting in the way of Firefighters trying to do their job)

Now again as stated previously I have not nor will I name the Fire Company nor its Members/Line Officers. But yes this has happened & it is a real shame!
I can however say this much, I am real happy not to be a member there anymore, But I do feel for the members that are still there whom are friends of mine since they must endure these matters until they step aside.

[Emtmom]

Approx 3-4 months ago, I joined another Fire Company (which nothing is stated within the 1st Station's SOPs or Bylaws pertaining to not running with more than 1 Fire Co/Dept.), which happened to be closer to my residence. Since this has happened, the Chief of the 1st Station has taken it upon himself to contact the Chief of the other Station I run with stating false accusations pertaining to me. That has since stopped for approx 1 month, however now, the Asst Chief last evening had taken it upon himself to stop @ the 2nd Station & make the same false accusations as were previously made by the 1st Chief. Can we say H-A-R-R-A-S-E-M-E-N-TL-A-W-Y-E-R!!!! Call one!

[mohican]

:confused: EMT/FF99

How much do you have documented, other than at TWD?
Would your employers verify that your ex chief slandered you at your place of employment?

Do you have witnesses to the threats by the officers of your last company?

Have you went over your ex chief's head to whatever body governs that fire department?

If not, You need to do so.
Also, because legal action might become involved, stop posting about it on an internet forum board accessible to everyone with a portal, eh?

Best of luck
you'll need it

if you want to discuss this off board, IM me

[oldhoseywhacker]

The "family comes first" hit a nerve with me.

I don't fight fires anymore, in part, because of my past expirience with chief officers (including admibistrative) that decided volunteer members had to work 1/2 the bingos, attend 1/2 of all drills, 1/2 of all work details including ones that were scheduled by somebody on Thursday or Friday for that Saturday and 3/4 of the monthly business meetings. Violators were subject to suspension and expulsion.

At the time these "rules" were created I was a rescue captain. I worked steady afternoon shift. So that eliminated me from bingos, weekday drills and the business meetings. When I brought this up, I was told that I would have to adjust my work schedule. When I quit laughing, I told the chief I'd keep being 1 of 4-6 guys that showed for daytime calls until my lack of attendance resulted in my expulsion.

To tie up the loose ends, I ended up quiting and in the process lost 6 guys, who until then had been lifelong friends, as friends. That was 15 years ago and things are just as bitter today as ever. My dad, a 30 year life member of the same department, hasn't set foot in the station in 15 years. He gathers at the local coffee shop with the other "lifers".

Yeah that touched a nerve but you left out some others.

Make the "lifers" (guys with 20+ years service) feel old. Tell them they had their time but it's time for new blood and new ideas.

Make little "cliques". If somebody isn't in your clique, don't talk to them. If you see somebody in your clique appear friendly to an outsider, bust his balls till they ache. That way it'll never happen again or worse, he may tell you to screw off and that'll really start hard feelings.

Make multiple family members officers. Score bonus points if the family holds the chief and presidents spot. Then have the membership groan about how instead of "Anytown Fire Dept" it's become "The Jones Brothers Fire Dept".

This is a little long but I was on a roll. I'll stop for now.